An [Amateur] Tactician's Chalkboard for FM11

[Alienman]

Can you give a quick overview of what you mean by the "modern central midfielder"? I don't want to ruin the article but I am curious about what kind of player you are emulating. Is it like a Xavi or more like a Carrick?

 

[giova2k10]

Spoiler

In regards to your post;

For the "Modern 4-4-2" you'll have to ask Mike. for a little more information on that, as he has all the knowledge to answer your questions, unlike me. But on my part:

• Fluidity would not be recommended, and you are right for making it balanced, so that the 4-4-2 can be based around the players focusing on their own game, rather than be a team they are a million miles off of. The team you are playing as, I am guessing, are very poor, and dwell in the lower leagues of football. Keeping it simple and not exposing yourself is the best way to get the best out of the modern 4-4-2. Even if they are not, the team you seem to have on show don't seem to be the best in the land, so the instructions seem fine.
• The instructions you've chosen, again are ones that would be recommended. You could go with 'More Roaming', so that the wingers and the central midfielders attack a little more intently, but Default is another good option. It's just dependent on how good they are in that position, role and duty.
• As for creativity, putting the slider around half-way is a good shout, but spreading it across to more able players would be beneficial, as they can then be a lot more expansive, and contribute to the match, unlike the whole eleven who could muck it all up.

For the 'modern Fullback and 'modern Centre Forward:

• The 'Closing Down' slider is the one that dictated his pressing up the pitch, and his movement around the field, thus leading to his average position being a little miscued from the role and duty that you set. Often, this is the case, because this slider is what can be described as 'making the most out of what you have.' in terms of it's counter-parted sliders. I.e. the more defensive, the more he will do within the zones set of defence.
• Briggs' game was also contributed by the crossing settings. Mixed positions from where he should cross and the direction to which he should, is what contributed to his passing game being so high. Regardless of where he is on the flank inside the opposition half, he can boot it into the penalty area. If successful, it contributes. If not, it still contributes.

• Maletic's first game was probably contributed by the closing by Arsenal, and their intention to break down his game. I am guessing that they fielded a three-man midfield? If so, there is a good chance that one of them was marking him. Thus, leading to why most of his passes where on the half-circle. He was often closed down, given small space to work from, and unable to contribute to the game fully.
• Maletic's second game was against a team that, arguably, played a two-man midfield, and have a weak defence. His completion of passes was contributed by the ability work from a vast amount of space, regular service from the midfield (unlike in the Arsenal game) and poor marking from them. Both games resemble the 'modern Centre Forward because his passage completion is nearer the centre, and his average position is the same. Despite his attributes not being the best for it, he still did very well.

To save a match, you basically:

• Click onto the match.
• Go to TV view.
• Once finished loading up, you click on Match View Controls.
• Click on the 'Save Match' button.
• Save the match.
• Go to: Sports Interactive > Football Manager 2011 > matches and find it in the folder.
• Once found, come back onto FM-Base, and click the Paperclip icon.
• Browse through the folders and find the match.
• Attach the document and upload.
• Click 'Submit Reply'.

Thanks for the comments Nicky, good to hear your opinions both on the tactic and the performances of those two players. My team is currently in the Championship fighting for promotion but we are far off the quality of Arsenal and the likes, with whom a more fluid style could provide that attacking movement needed to go through solid defences.

You're actually right on Maletic's games, Arsenal did play their usual 4-1-2-2-1 formation so he was often dealing with their DMC and you know how good Song is in that position

I have to say that I'm pleased about how he can act as a link between midfield and attack although at times he slows down the game too much with a backward pass when a through pass to the flank would be the best solution. I however find this a fault shared by many of my players, they dwell too much on the ball when nearing the opposition penalty area, while a quick cross or through ball could be deadly. Any suggestions to limit this problem?

I've also noticed a lot of back passes from the four defenders to the keeper, it seems like they don't know what to do with the ball; maybe setting one of the two MCs even more defensive than he already is (I've set him as Ball Winning - Defend with defensive mentality) might help provide an outlet for them, am I right?

Thanks for telling me how to save and attach a match file, here's the replay at the Emirates which I drew 3-3 then won on penalties. If you find the time to take a look and tell me what you think it would be great |)

One thing I noticed is just how attacking their fullbacks are, they are constantly bombing forward while the wingers cut inside and hope to connect with the fullbacks' crosses into the box; one of their goals came this way in fact. Also, they created us much more torubles when they switched to 4-4-2 instead of their usual 4-1-2-2-1.

I should have a look at defending set pieces because one of the conceded goals was a free header on a free kick, I should have set a better marking for that.

 

[iNickStuff]

Can you give a quick overview of what you mean by the "modern central midfielder"? I don't want to ruin the article but I am curious about what kind of player you are emulating. Is it like a Xavi or more like a Carrick?

The latter. But the article will base around the three-man midfields and the roles that they play. Today's modern midfielder doesn't have to be a great passer, tackler and a box-to-box player - just a simple player.

---------- Post added at 06:11 AM ---------- Previous post was at 06:06 AM ----------

Can you give a quick overview of what you mean by the "modern central midfielder"? I don't want to ruin the article but I am curious about what kind of player you are emulating. Is it like a Xavi or more like a Carrick?

The latter. But the article will base around the three-man midfields and the roles that they play. Today's modern midfielder doesn't have to be a great passer, tackler and a box-to-box player - just a simple player.

 

[Alienman]

Double post!

Thanks. Do you mind me asking what your sources are for your research? I see you use a lot of zonalmarking.net, anything besides that?

 

[Athe~]

And I am very glad that you are not Swedish.

What do you have against Swedes?

Slightly on topic - I've been trying to use 3 men defensive systems featuring a Sweeper, and had it worked I would've tried a Libero eventually. Sadly, it didn't. In your article about the 3 men defense, will you cover the sweeper role as well or will it be a flat 3? I've seen a few guys interested in using a sweeper but it's hardly a used position in FM - or IRL for that matter.

 

[donkarlito]

Can wait for next article because im doing my long term United save so any new article shouldnt be a problem to try because I have got the players

 

[robing9g]

I get what u mean, but if he doesnt get that PPM he wont gets inside, ive tried

 

[SS19]

What do you have against Swedes?

Slightly on topic - I've been trying to use 3 men defensive systems featuring a Sweeper, and had it worked I would've tried a Libero eventually. Sadly, it didn't. In your article about the 3 men defense, will you cover the sweeper role as well or will it be a flat 3? I've seen a few guys interested in using a sweeper but it's hardly a used position in FM - or IRL for that matter.

Everything, simple explanation is that I am Finnish.

 

[OsmosisJones]

Hi! First, thanks for the nice and helping thread, INickStuff!
However, I do have a slight questions. I use the false 9 + false 10 partnership, described by mvp93 and linked in this thread, combined with controlled creative attacking. It is great but somehow it feels like there is noone leading the attack. I mean the striker drops deep and in order to fashion a chance for himself he must beat 2 defenders at least. I used some months ago a similar tactic but the striker was a poacher since I didn't knew about mvp93's article then. It also went very well. Could you please comment those 2 partnerships(false 10 + false 9 and false 10 + poacher) in terms of 4-2-3-1 deep tactics with 2 supporting wingers?

 

[Athe~]

Everything, simple explanation is that I am Finnish.

Well, I've been playing games with Finns and Swedes since I got my hands on a computer, and I've never had any hate issues. I can understand you may not like them due to Finland being a part of Sweden for a long time, but I doubt any of those Swedes are still alive right now P) and considering you actually received Swedish volunteers during the Winter War (I would think it'd be more logical for you to hate Russians) I found your point pretty... weak. Although I'm neither Swedish nor Finnish so I may be missing something here. Either way, you shouldn't bring your hatred to a Football Manager forum nor put everyone in the same bag. People tendo to be different from each other, you know...

Sorry for the off topic.

 

[iNickStuff]

Thanks for the comments Nicky, good to hear your opinions both on the tactic and the performances of those two players. My team is currently in the Championship fighting for promotion but we are far off the quality of Arsenal and the likes, with whom a more fluid style could provide that attacking movement needed to go through solid defences.

You're actually right on Maletic's games, Arsenal did play their usual 4-1-2-2-1 formation so he was often dealing with their DMC and you know how good Song is in that position

I have to say that I'm pleased about how he can act as a link between midfield and attack although at times he slows down the game too much with a backward pass when a through pass to the flank would be the best solution. I however find this a fault shared by many of my players, they dwell too much on the ball when nearing the opposition penalty area, while a quick cross or through ball could be deadly. Any suggestions to limit this problem?

I've also noticed a lot of back passes from the four defenders to the keeper, it seems like they don't know what to do with the ball; maybe setting one of the two MCs even more defensive than he already is (I've set him as Ball Winning - Defend with defensive mentality) might help provide an outlet for them, am I right?

Thanks for telling me how to save and attach a match file, here's the replay at the Emirates which I drew 3-3 then won on penalties. If you find the time to take a look and tell me what you think it would be great |)

One thing I noticed is just how attacking their fullbacks are, they are constantly bombing forward while the wingers cut inside and hope to connect with the fullbacks' crosses into the box; one of their goals came this way in fact. Also, they created us much more torubles when they switched to 4-4-2 instead of their usual 4-1-2-2-1.

I should have a look at defending set pieces because one of the conceded goals was a free header on a free kick, I should have set a better marking for that.

To answer your questions:

• No, leave his 'Mentality' mid-way, maybe a couple of clicks back into Defensive so that he knows where his role is. Other than that, making him more defensive than he already is can hamper your tactic altogether, as there is not enough link-up play between the midfielders.
• Shorten the passing and set the 'Run With Ball' to rarely? Also, look at making them individual schedules and focusing on the mental side of their game. See how that pans out over three months and their attributes should get stronger, thus allowing them to make the right decision.

Will take a look at the match now, as I have time.

Double post!

Thanks. Do you mind me asking what your sources are for your research? I see you use a lot of zonalmarking.net, anything besides that?

I use ZonalMarking variably, alongside other sources such as:

• Guardian Chalkboards
• Guardian 'Touchline' Statistics
• BBC Sport/Football
• SkySports.com
• 11-Tegen-11 at WordPress.com
• The Arsenal Report
• Footbo.com
• SoccerBase.com
• Official UEFA website
• EuroSport.co.uk

What do you have against Swedes?

Slightly on topic - I've been trying to use 3 men defensive systems featuring a Sweeper, and had it worked I would've tried a Libero eventually. Sadly, it didn't. In your article about the 3 men defense, will you cover the sweeper role as well or will it be a flat 3? I've seen a few guys interested in using a sweeper but it's hardly a used position in FM - or IRL for that matter.

I personally favour the flat back three for some reason. I really haven't got a clue why. I just find it better, I suppose, because I don't have to re-train defenders into sweepers and make the tactic a little more awkward.

But I will cover it as you have mentioned. Most likely on the common Sweeper, as the Libero seems of a dying breed in Europe. Unlike in South America. But we will see.

Can wait for next article because im doing my long term United save so any new article shouldnt be a problem to try because I have got the players

Sounds great. Hope it helps you.

I get what u mean, but if he doesnt get that PPM he wont gets inside, ive tried

Don't worry about the PPM no longer being there. The PI's (Player Instructions) help this anyway. PI's are what determine PPM's.

Eg. Set your winger to cut inside. He likes doing it, so he will develop it as a PPM if asked.

Everything, simple explanation is that I am Finnish.

Ok. I personally do not know anything about this rivalry between Scandinavian (sp) countries, but still - keep it off the thread please.

Hi! First, thanks for the nice and helping thread, INickStuff!
However, I do have a slight questions. I use the false 9 + false 10 partnership, described by mvp93 and linked in this thread, combined with controlled creative attacking. It is great but somehow it feels like there is noone leading the attack. I mean the striker drops deep and in order to fashion a chance for himself he must beat 2 defenders at least. I used some months ago a similar tactic but the striker was a poacher since I didn't knew about mvp93's article then. It also went very well. Could you please comment those 2 partnerships(false 10 + false 9 and false 10 + poacher) in terms of 4-2-3-1 deep tactics with 2 supporting wingers?

In all honesty, I have very little knowledge about the False 9 and 10. I haven't researched them enough to warrant an opinion on the matter, so my suggestion would be to PM the author, mvp93, as he has the knowledge to help you and answer your questions.

Well, I've been playing games with Finns and Swedes since I got my hands on a computer, and I've never had any hate issues. I can understand you may not like them due to Finland being a part of Sweden for a long time, but I doubt any of those Swedes are still alive right now P) and considering you actually received Swedish volunteers during the Winter War (I would think it'd be more logical for you to hate Russians) I found your point pretty... weak. Although I'm neither Swedish nor Finnish so I may be missing something here. Either way, you shouldn't bring your hatred to a Football Manager forum nor put everyone in the same bag. People tendo to be different from each other, you know...

Sorry for the off topic.

This.

Please keep it clean. The thread is about tactical discussion, and sharing articles amongst one-another, not rivalries between two countries that have deeply-rooted histories.

 

[SS19]

I think I posted this earlier, but didn't get any answer. So, how did you manage to get so many passes to your second striker? Mine gets like max 20. I am using 4-2-3-1, where second striker is AMCL and striker STCR. About 1/5 of them being key passes.

 

[iNickStuff]

I think I posted this earlier, but didn't get any answer. So, how did you manage to get so many passes to your second striker? Mine gets like max 20. I am using 4-2-3-1, where second striker is AMCL and striker STCR. About 1/5 of them being key passes.

Very short passing, and setting 'Run with Ball Often' to Rarely.

 

[SS19]

Very short passing, and setting 'Run with Ball Often' to Rarely.

Passing affects his positioning in the field when team is in possession? I thought the problem would be players around him not making passes to him. And I think problem is that I build up play from the back, goalkeeper having defender collect and distribution to left back (same side where the second striker is) and basicly my playmaker is blocking the option to pass to second striker, so he is not available for passes. I hope you understand what I mean.

Maybe changing the playmakers position to DM instead of CM would help, but that means retraining and possibly not so tight defence in the middle, which my game is based on. Him dropping too low allows too much space for opposition and as second striker is basicly useless in defending except against teams playing DM it would cause too much trouble.

 

[iNickStuff]

Passing affects his positioning in the field when team is in possession? I thought the problem would be players around him not making passes to him. And I think problem is that I build up play from the back, goalkeeper having defender collect and distribution to left back (same side where the second striker is) and basicly my playmaker is blocking the option to pass to second striker, so he is not available for passes. I hope you understand what I mean.

Maybe changing the playmakers position to DM instead of CM would help, but that means retraining and possibly not so tight defence in the middle, which my game is based on. Him dropping too low allows too much space for opposition and as second striker is basicly useless in defending except against teams playing DM it would cause too much trouble.

I disagree with the second paragraph, first of all. About the second striker being useless in cases other than teams playing with a defensive midfielder. It's the complete opposite. Second strikers of today are players who work for the ball, and make it a miserable day for defenders. Being marked makes it harder for them.

Passing doesn't change his positioning, it makes it known where he generally is on the pitch. The more passes in the middle of the pitch dictates that they are coming deep, getting the ball worked up the midfield and wings and into the partnered striker. It's what second strikers do these days. A clinical example is Wayne Rooney.

 

[SS19]

I disagree with the second paragraph, first of all. About the second striker being useless in cases other than teams playing with a defensive midfielder. It's the complete opposite. Second strikers of today are players who work for the ball, and make it a miserable day for defenders. Being marked makes it harder for them.

Passing doesn't change his positioning, it makes it known where he generally is on the pitch. The more passes in the middle of the pitch dictates that they are coming deep, getting the ball worked up the midfield and wings and into the partnered striker. It's what second strikers do these days. A clinical example is Wayne Rooney.

Well, I solved the problem. I noticed that my ball winning midfielder wasn't available for passes, so changed also him to deep lying playmaker with defend duty, now when I have 2 deep lying playmakers they make more passes to each other and also second striker ahead of him. That helped a lot. Also my second striker is now inside forward, he is available to passes much and also makes a lot of runs created by DLF, which is not second strikerish (nice word), but works well for me.

---------- Post added at 03:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:46 AM ----------

And one request, can somebody make an article what does those sliders and other options in PI actually do. Some are quite easy to understand (run with ball for example), but better explanation would be good, to know pros and cons of different options. Creative freedom and mentality are things that should be described with more details.

That will help managers like me to understand how actually does those decision affect my game and makes it easier to actually make own tactics.

 

[iNickStuff]

Well, I solved the problem. I noticed that my ball winning midfielder wasn't available for passes, so changed also him to deep lying playmaker with defend duty, now when I have 2 deep lying playmakers they make more passes to each other and also second striker ahead of him. That helped a lot. Also my second striker is now inside forward, he is available to passes much and also makes a lot of runs created by DLF, which is not second strikerish (nice word), but works well for me.

---------- Post added at 03:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:46 AM ----------

And one request, can somebody make an article what does those sliders and other options in PI actually do. Some are quite easy to understand (run with ball for example), but better explanation would be good, to know pros and cons of different options. Creative freedom and mentality are things that should be described with more details.

That will help managers like me to understand how actually does those decision affect my game and makes it easier to actually make own tactics.

There is a link between Creativity and Mentality actually. And I will, but after a few more.

 

[Marrocos83]

Hi NickStuff, first of all i wanted to congratulate you for this Tread, as it is very well written and easy for any one to understand.
I wanted to ask you what would be you interpretation of the A.C. Milan Midfield three man, whit Gatusso, Van Bommel and Flamini, since there palying in real life, from what i could understand Van Bommel seats deeper than the other two, in a 1-2 midfield, but i do not know how to recreate there real life type of play in FM.
Sorry for my poor english, its not my first language.
Thanks.

 

[iNickStuff]

Hi NickStuff, first of all i wanted to congratulate you for this Tread, as it is very well written and easy for any one to understand.
I wanted to ask you what would be you interpretation of the A.C. Milan Midfield three man, whit Gatusso, Van Bommel and Flamini, since there palying in real life, from what i could understand Van Bommel seats deeper than the other two, in a 1-2 midfield, but i do not know how to recreate there real life type of play in FM.
Sorry for my poor english, its not my first language.
Thanks.

It's funny how you mention A.C. Milan, when I was playing as them earlier for an article.

The way I perceive A.C. Milan this year is the dominance of possession, but utilising the attacking threats of Zlatan Ibrahimovic, Robinho and Pato. Even Cassano if you want to add him as an attacking midfielder.

Il Rossoneri strengthened their midfield this year with the inclusion of Mark van Bommel in their midfield, alongside Gattuso, Ambrosini and Flamini. This probably contributes to the large amounts of possession that they may get in their matches. The use of Pirlo and Seedorf as playmakers are those who help Ibra, Robinho, Pato and Cassano get the ball up to to score.

So, in FM, I would probably lay out their formation as either a 4-1-2-1-2 or a 4-1-3-2. Either way, it still uses a strong midfield for the players they have. Probably lay it out like this.

Abbiati


Zambrotta ----- Thiago Silva ----- Nesta ----- Antonini


Pirlo


Van Bommel/Gattuso -------- Ambrosini/Flamini


Seedorf/Cassano


Ibrahimovic ----- Pato/Robinho

Rigid philosophy, Control strategy, alongside with a medium defensive line, narrow width, slow tempo and moderate time-wasting. That should grant you around 55-70% possession. Dependent on how you manage them through the match. I would say that the following roles should be applied:

• Cristian Abbiati: Goalkeeper, Defend

• Gianluca Zambrotta: Full Back, Support/Wing Back, Support
• Thiago Silva: Central Defender, Defend
• Alessandro Nesta: Central Defender, Defend
• Luca Antonini: Full Back, Defend

• Andrea Pirlo: Deep-Lying Playmaker, Defend
• Mark Van Bommel/Gennaro Gattuso: Ball-Winning Midfielder, Defend
• Massimo Ambrosini/Mathieu Flamini: Central Midfielder, Automatic
• Clarence Seedorf/Antonio Cassano: Advanced Playmaker, Support/Attacking Midfielder, Support

• Zlatan Ibrahimovic: Complete Forward, Support/Attack
• Robinho/Pato: Poacher/ Deep-Lying Forward, Attack

I've had success with this sort of line-up, and it's fairly accurate.
​

 

[Marrocos83]

NickStuff, thanks for the sharing of your interpretation of A.C. Milan squad this year.
I just wanted to ask just another few things:
- As in there last games, A.C. Milan used a 4-1-2-1-2, whit Van Bommel in front of the DCs and Gatuso (MCR) and Flamini (MCL), and im just wondering what Roles would you give them, as from what i can understand the MC support (automatic) Role is more of a passing type of player, whit trough balls set to often in the TC, and im assuming that the midfield of Milan would be, right now, more the type of destroying and direct play for the front 3 (Robinho, Zlatan, Pato);
- I also wondering what you mean by, for example, "complete forward/attack/support", when you give two options, what one should i use, sorry, but im kind knew in this things;
-And finally, would you do any kind of "tweaks" in the Roles of the players from the original TC configuration? could Milan use any of yours "Modern Centre Forward", Second Striker or Modern Fullbacks?Because from Zonal Marking we see Robinho in the AMC slot but drifting to the left and Pato more in a Second line in the Right field whit Zlatan in the Centre of the Attack.
Im Sorry for all this questions but im been trying to replicate real life A.C. Milan type of play and i had all this questions.
Thanks for your patience and, again, sorry for my poor english.