Leeds United - a tactical experiment

[aramis]

It doesn't look like they are playing in the same space. i don't know what's the problem. Maybe the IF is to advanced ? He gets caught offside a few times every match.

 

[aramis]

For the away game against MK Dons I retreated the IF(A) to WM(A) with no PI's. I didn't change nothing else. We won 3-0 and Dallas had an average rating of 8.7

 

[aramis]

And then this happened with the 4141 :

View attachment 204530

So I would rather find a way to make the IF work.

 

[WJ]

It doesn't look like they are playing in the same space. i don't know what's the problem. Maybe the IF is to advanced ? He gets caught offside a few times every match.

You're not sure if he's too advanced but YOU watched the match and now asking the question?

You're having an issue with the IF. Without a save or PKM, we can't see. You can. There surely has to be something you spotted when doing so? Maybe they're not IN the same space, but the IF is trying to attack the space the CM/A is already in? Is the IF getting receiving his fair share of passes at least so he can be involved in play? What does he do then? Is it what an IF should be doing? etc

 

[aramis]

1. He is not receiving as many passes as I would like and în some games it looks like his team mates are avoiding him
2. When he gets the ball he usually lose it very easy ( an opponent tackle mostly )
3. Sometimes it seems to be heavily marked because he shares the same space with the opposition fullback.

 

[WJ]

1. He is not receiving as many passes as I would like and în some games it looks like his team mates are avoiding him
2. When he gets the ball he usually lose it very easy ( an opponent tackle mostly )
3. Sometimes it seems to be heavily marked because he shares the same space with the opposition fullback.

And the most important question, imo, is left unanswered.

1 - Have a look at the build-up and see why he isn't receiving the ball. Is someone else a better passing option? Is someone else in the way? Is there another role/duty that would bring him into play more, by either changing his role or the player who is preventing him from getting the ball?

2 - Player attributes would be important. Agility, acceleration and maybe even dribbling.

3 - Which means he won't be getting passes if he's already on top of the fullback. You'll either need to accept that he'll be a wide Poacher in the attacking phase, work the ball forward quicker or drop the mentality so that the players will take fewer risks with runs forward and that might just cause him to make those runs later.

 

[aramis]

Leeds VS Blackburn

Leeds Vs Blackburn game. Won 2-0 but Dallas was the worst player on the pitch again.

 

[aramis]

And we can't score anymore!

View attachment 204176View attachment 204177

Trashed away by Cardiff on the counter. None of my players can't score anymore. And we draw a lot of matches.

 

[aramis]

Please watch this game

4-0 for them. Watch the match please and you will see what I'm talking about. We started losing all matches. This happened at the same time when I tried tactics on FMT. In FMT i tried the tactic posted by Cleon on counter attacking football. Lost all games from november on.
What's this?
This is the same tactic that gave me 7 CCC on match and now I don't have one.

 

[WJ]

4-0 for them. Watch the match please and you will see what I'm talking about. We started losing all matches. This happened at the same time when I tried tactics on FMT. In FMT i tried the tactic posted by Cleon on counter attacking football. Lost all games from november on.What's this? This is the same tactic that gave me 7 CCC on match and now I don't have one.

Cleon made it quite clear that it wasn't about copying the tactic. If that's the style you're going for, set it up for yourself, not copy someone else's tactic for THEIR team.I'm still wondering if you're watching or even paying attention during games? You keep ranting about "oh I lost", but no observations about why or anything that shows you picked up any issues.

Also, random PKMs, but where's the tactical setup you used going into the game???

 

[aramis]

1. If you've read my posts you'll know that in my saves I use only tactics made by myself. Entirely made by myself. I can always explain the role selection and the idea behind the tactic.
2. As I already said I used Cleon setup în FMT because I wanted to see if it's something wrong with my own setup. I use FMT only for tactical experiments. I play my saves în clasic mode. Starting from november the team started to lose no matter what. I used Cleon setup to see how the team will do with something probably better than mine, and that setup was also fit my squad. We lost even more . So maybe it's not my tactic?!
3. There are no random PKM's. There are 3 consecutive matches.The tactical setup is posted everywhere as for someone actually reading my posts and willing to help to see it. I've made no changes to it even if I was losing because I wanted to spot the problems. I didn't even substitute Dallas the entire match because I wanted someone who can see what's the problem with him to help me.
GK
WBS CDD CDD FBS
DLPD
APS CMA
IFA IFA
F9S
play out of defense
work ball into box
standard fluid
4. I do watch the matches. Maybe we are not all so good at picking issues. It won't be better for someone who's seeing them to say: you have this problem because. ... and you could make this change because. ... don't you think people will actually start learning something this way?
5. I've picked up some issues like:
- defenders passing to GK who's running forward and the ball gets in the net
- defenders passing the ball into corner
- all defenders run to the player who has the ball this one passes the ball and one of the free players scores. Not even once happened to my side but often happens for the AI. I wish I could score so easily.
- my strikers stop scoring. No matter what. Even with an empty net. We have 7 ccc and score one the AI has one and scores two.
- players are staying on the pitch and simply wait to lose the ball
- the opposition GK is usually Superman

 

[WJ]

1. If you've read my posts you'll know that in my saves I use only tactics made by myself. Entirely made by myself. I can always explain the role selection and the idea behind the tactic.

I know that, but then why mention Cleon's tactic? It's not yours.

Very few of those explanations are posted in the thread though. Posting more detail will get you better help, tbh.

2. As I already said I used Cleon setup în FMT because I wanted to see if it's something wrong with my own setup. I use FMT only for tactical experiments. I play my saves în clasic mode. Starting from november the team started to lose no matter what. I used Cleon setup to see how the team will do with something probably better than mine, and that setup was also fit my squad. We lost even more . So maybe it's not my tactic?!

Again though, your 'test' was with someone else's tactic. You just plugged it in and hoped for the best. Cleon tried to get across the PRINCIPLE of the whole thing, not "cpy dis 4 sucezz"

The problem so far has been you, tbh. You don't recognise problems. You don't provide any great detail about your issues. Then I prod for more information (while also giving very obvious clues as to what to look for) and get very, very little information back.

3. There are no random PKM's. There are 3 consecutive matches.The tactical setup is posted everywhere as for someone actually reading my posts and willing to help to see it. I've made no changes to it even if I was losing because I wanted to spot the problems. I didn't even substitute Dallas the entire match because I wanted someone who can see what's the problem with him to help me.
GK
WBS CDD CDD FBS
DLPD
APS CMA
IFA IFA
F9S
play out of defense
work ball into box
standard fluid

They are random. No indication of the tactics used. No indication of problems experienced in the matches, other than that you lost, which anyone can see. No indication of what you did notice and the changes you made DURING the matches. Nothing.

From the outside, it looks like you have a tactic, you press continue and end up losing. Then we get a screenshot - "look, I lost. Why?" and from that we have to guess.

The PKMs are great though, because finally WE can see what YOU saw.

4. I do watch the matches. Maybe we are not all so good at picking issues. It won't be better for someone who's seeing them to say: you have this problem because. ... and you could make this change because. ... don't you think people will actually start learning something this way?

No. It's not about "not being good at picking issues". It's about actually putting some effort in yourself. I can give you a million things to change. What's the point?

Look at how painful it was/is to get you to look at the CM/A and IF/A on the same side being an issue. Starting at #35 I asked if the CM/A and the IF/A were getting in each other's way. Your reply? A one-liner that immediately asks me to spoonfeed you with role suggestions rather than first looking for yourself at it first. Then you ask if the IF is too advanced, as if I can see the situation you're talking about and the exact situations you just looked at in detail.

Then you get more detail in post #46 about what to look for in a match, but that was left unanswered/ignored. Instead now, there are PKMs which allow us to do it instead.

5. I've picked up some issues like:
- defenders passing to GK who's running forward and the ball gets in the net
- defenders passing the ball into corner
- all defenders run to the player who has the ball this one passes the ball and one of the free players scores. Not even once happened to my side but often happens for the AI. I wish I could score so easily.
- my strikers stop scoring. No matter what. Even with an empty net. We have 7 ccc and score one the AI has one and scores two.
- players are staying on the pitch and simply wait to lose the ball
- the opposition GK is usually Superman

You pick up these issues, but have you posted in any detail about the specific issues? No. Have you posted about what you did to try and 'fix' the issues? No.


You had so much detail in the first post. The thread had such a good start. Then nothing.

Anyway, if I get a chance, I'll look at the PKMs in about 7 hours. Hopefully someone else can before then.

 

[WJ]

By the way, I hope you can see now that's it is very important to give information when you have an issue.

Remember we're taking our time to try and help and no one has to. It's purely to help YOU, so if you can provide the information and put effort into this, you can get it.

The PKMs are a great start.

 

[aramis]

Thank you for the answer.
I have two small Kids and I play the game after I put them to sleep.
I haven't had the time to post as much informations as in the op because I wanted to play the game at least for a few matches.
But I have to find the issues because i'll lose this save if I don't and this time I won't be starting another one. It's not to late to recover i'm 13th place but only 3 points behind second place.
curently at work and can't write to much.

 

[aramis]

În FMT I tested my tactics. Plug and play, no changes because I wanted to see how we do and how we play in those systems against different opposition and formations. Every time we started very good and by the start of november the losing streak started and kept on. I used Cleon template because I wanted to see if this is still happening. And it was worse, maybe because it wasn't tailored for my team. It was simply a mental sanity check. I don't know how else to explain it.

The tactic used was the same in all the PKM's cause I wanted you to see what i'm not able to see. This is why I said I haven't even substitute the if even if he was the worst player on the pitch.

But I do completly agree with you about the thing that I don't recognise problems. That may be the main issue.

 

[WJ]

Leeds Vs Blackburn game. Won 2-0 but Dallas was the worst player on the pitch again.

View attachment 203834

Now straight away(!!!!) I see 14 shots but only 5 on target. That immediately sets the alarm bells off.

Antenucci has had 6 shots, with only 2 on target. He is wasting shots.

View attachment 203832

Off to analysis. Look at each of the 6 shots, he didn't have even one decent chance. 3 were from outside the area. The others were all around the edge of the are, but one was blocked, one was a volley with his left and the other a snap shot also with the left. He seems rush a lot of what he does, mostly because there isn't much time to do something else. He always has a defender on him and there seems to be a million covering his 2 passing options - the IF/As. Again, obvious stuff. The defence seems to have far too much time to get into place.

View attachment 203831

I don't know if the interceptions are that bad, but look in the middle. That surely stands out to you? ONE player lost the ball all those times. Lewis Cook, the AP/A, keeps getting the ball and then he turns to his right. There he has only one passing option and that's the IF/A, who he keeps missing. An option there is to let the IF/A not be an IF/A to make himself more available. Or let Lewis take more time on the ball to make better decisions. Or restrict his freedom by giving him a different role. There are a lot of things you can do.



-----

All that was observed in 5 mins. And just from looking at the stats.

-----

Now, the match.


The IF/A, Dallas, is utterly un-involved. Why? Exactly what I asked check. The CM/A going so far forward is preventing the IF/A from drifting in. He's stuck out wide on top of a fullback. Just look at 18:20 when Dallas for some reason drops deep to link with the CM/A. Beautiful. That doesn't happen anywhere near often enough.


Thing is, you have 3 players who bomb forward. When crosses come in, in the Attacking phase, you still have 4 in the box. You're way over-crowding the box! Who's making plays? One guy in the middle is expected to feed 4 guys - and those 4 guys are taking all the defenders with them, so there are a lot of bodies in the box. It's too aggressive.

View attachment 993616View attachment 993615

Trashed away by Cardiff on the counter. None of my players can't score anymore. And we draw a lot of matches.

I'm not going watch the match as I assume you'll have the same issues.

I do notice that Botaka was the only one who had any shots on target. You had 9 in total with 3 on target. Strangely, you had a different AP/S in this match and he didn't make the same mistakes as Lewis Cook did. PPMs maybe causing it?

Dallas, the IF/A on the left looked quite dangerous at times. It looks like the CM/A interfered less. Did the CM/A have Drops Deep PPM maybe?

Botaka's shots from IF/A on the right seemed weak. Off-balance? What's his balance attribute? He didn't seem good so far advanced there.

Their goals? The first wasn't a counter.

The second was good, but you were too open at the back. The DLP/D was sucked up field when he was brought into play and that left a 2 v 2 at the back. From there it was just a scramble to close all the gaps.

The third was also a counter and you were too open again. You also need to remember that you have 4 players in the box. A WB/S who will get forward and an advanced playmaker. That leaves a lot of your players unable to get back and help in time. It's too attacking.

It's so simple? I pause the match at times and look at where your players are. Anyone can see it. I'm just taking the time, for some reason, to do it.

4-0 for them. Watch the match please and you will see what I'm talking about. We started losing all matches. This happened at the same time when I tried tactics on FMT. In FMT i tried the tactic posted by Cleon on counter attacking football. Lost all games from november on.
What's this?
This is the same tactic that gave me 7 CCC on match and now I don't have one.

What immediately stands out is that only 1 person scored all 4 goals - the lone striker in a 4-4-1-1.

Again, did you watch the match? You can't score if you had **** chances.

View attachment 203830

The chances you had:

Look at the top 2, from Botaka on the right. The first (yellow) was unlucky but at a poor angle, so that makes it easier for the keeper. The 2nd (orange) one was on the turn with 2 defenders in very close proximity.

Dallas's 2 at the bottom was both hit with his left, which I assume isn't great. The yellow was deflected, again surrounded by 2 defenders.

Dallas (15) had an orange one there that was a good chance, but the keeper did well to rush it. Look at that clip. It STARTS with you having 4 players ON the D-Line, un-involved and not pulling anyone, anywhere.

-----

These chances would have worked against OPEN teams who were overpowered with quick central attacks. These teams aren't that open.

Now, just quickly I picked up issues in each match, so if you made changes in the match you may have won.

Many issues overlap, so look at those first.

 

[aramis]

Thank you very much for this answer.
It probably take a million years for me to figure it out what I have to change.

All that was observed in 5 mins. And just from looking at the stats.

Lots of us who are struggling with tactics don't know for what to watch and more important don't know how to improve this things even if we saw them. I didn't change nothing because I wanted to show you how things are working. But if I were to make changes i doubt it have been the right one. Neither now, when you gave me major indications I'm not sure what I have to change! Retreat the IF to WM ? WM on S or A ? Change the mentality? To counter or defensive? Change the CMA to CMS or BBM? And if I change the CMA i also have to change the IF? And if I change all that I still have to change the team mentality to a less aggressive one? And the AP- change him to or lower the tempo? And change him to what? And that DLP who

was sucked up field

? What should I do with him? And my WB? I've made him an WB just because I wanted him to be a little more offensive then the left full back but not to offensive ? What should I do with him now? It seems like I have to change the entire tactic. I will read your post multiple time and hope to find a starting point.
Don't get me wrong , your answer was more than someone could wish , but I guarantee you that every person struggling with tactics will have the same sort of question I have.
It seems that the ones standing where I stand have two options:
1. give up on the game , don't play it don't buy it - and i really like the game and i will like learning to play it well
2. learn this tactics thing which , please believe me , it's much harder than it seems : maybe there is to much or to less info i don't know- you read one guide than another and so one, you try to apply and nothing works - you start again but it seems one guide says something another something different and you are lost... you read a lot of things on forums and you are even more lost. It seems that there's no way to find how to put in practice all those things. The missing link- it's missing!!!
3. and the third one will be to download a tactic which probably exploit something. For me this is not an option. I have to do it myself and I have to know why I'm doing what I'm doing. So at the moment I don't know where to start. Yes I read all those guides and more, I've read this site tactical forum, SI forum, Cleon blog, Rashid blog, Fm Veteran, CoffeHouse and even more. And? It seems nothing improved. I got back where i started and this happen to a lot of people- just watch the forums and the people posting there. Or maybe I'm to stupid for this game.
I started the original post because I wanted guys struggling like me to learn something from my struggle. I hoped to get somewhere, learn something but... reading your post I figured out I've learned nothing cause I don't know even from where to start changing things... I think I'm from the group of people who should just give up and admit defeat.
Anyway, sorry for the long rant.

 

[macca72]

Don't give up. Calm down and read again what WJ has said.

Ask these questions (to yourself).

1. How do I want to play
2. Can I do that right now with the players I have
3. Who are my best players and how do I get the best out of them
4. Where are my massive weak links, and how do I protect them
5. What do I want to achieve in the first season, is it realistic and achievable
6. What are my team strengths and weaknesses

If you do that people, me included, will try and help you.

I play FM exclusively with Leeds and know the squad inside out. I'm no expert on tactics, but you have WJ's attention for now, so take a breath and look again.

Cheers

 

[WJ]

Thank you very much for this answer.
It probably take a million years for me to figure it out what I have to change.

I've given you most of the answers anyway.

Lots of us who are struggling with tactics don't know for what to watch and more important don't know how to improve this things even if we saw them.

I don't believe that.

You asked "why can't we score?". First thing I did? I went to go look at the shots and what happened.

As I said, pause at any time and you can see what I mentioned.

I didn't change nothing because I wanted to show you how things are working. But if I were to make changes i doubt it have been the right one. Neither now, when you gave me major indications I'm not sure what I have to change!

There would be more than one way to do things, which is why I didn't give you anything specific, but some very strong suggestions as to what's wrong.

Retreat the IF to WM ? WM on S or A ? Change the mentality? To counter or defensive? Change the CMA to CMS or BBM? And if I change the CMA i also have to change the IF? And if I change all that I still have to change the team mentality to a less aggressive one?

Why do you need to change mentality? When did I mention that?

The point that I keep making is this:

YOUR IF/A AND CM/A ARE IN EACH OTHER'S WAY. BOTH ARE ATTACKING THE SAME AREA. CHANGE ONE OF THEM. CHANGE EITHER OF THEM TO A SUPPORT DUTY. Is that now spoonfeeding enough?

I even told you to go look at a specific passage where the IF/A dropped off and created a great move. Imagine what a support duty would do. You haven't even looked at the passage of play.

???

And the AP- change him to or lower the tempo? And change him to what? And that DLP who ? What should I do with him? And my WB? I've made him an WB just because I wanted him to be a little more offensive then the left full back but not to offensive ? What should I do with him now? It seems like I have to change the entire tactic. I will read your post multiple time and hope to find a starting point.
Don't get me wrong , your answer was more than someone could wish , but I guarantee you that every person struggling with tactics will have the same sort of question I have.

I cannot, cannot spoonfeed you. I gave you a few options there. I told you to look at the differences between the two AP/S players you used. The latter did better than the main AP/S with his hollywood balls.

The DLP/D was brought into play often --- because he's also a playmaker.

I didn't say anything about the WB? I'm not saying change everything - I'm saying open your eyes. You have 6 players, very far up the field when you lose it. Get more cover. Solving the DLP/D and IF/A///CM/A issue will help already.

Speaking of cover, does your FB/S have Get Further Forward PPM? If he has, that's also not good. He needs to stay back more.

It seems that the ones standing where I stand have two options:
1. give up on the game , don't play it don't buy it - and i really like the game and i will like learning to play it well
2. learn this tactics thing which , please believe me , it's much harder than it seems : maybe there is to much or to less info i don't know- you read one guide than another and so one, you try to apply and nothing works - you start again but it seems one guide says something another something different and you are lost... you read a lot of things on forums and you are even more lost. It seems that there's no way to find how to put in practice all those things. The missing link- it's missing!!!
3. and the third one will be to download a tactic which probably exploit something. For me this is not an option. I have to do it myself and I have to know why I'm doing what I'm doing. So at the moment I don't know where to start. Yes I read all those guides and more, I've read this site tactical forum, SI forum, Cleon blog, Rashid blog, Fm Veteran, CoffeHouse and even more. And? It seems nothing improved. I got back where i started and this happen to a lot of people- just watch the forums and the people posting there. Or maybe I'm to stupid for this game.
I started the original post because I wanted guys struggling like me to learn something from my struggle. I hoped to get somewhere, learn something but... reading your post I figured out I've learned nothing cause I don't know even from where to start changing things... I think I'm from the group of people who should just give up and admit defeat.
Anyway, sorry for the long rant.

You wanted to learn. I'm giving you the chance to.

Read what I wrote. Look in your game at the matches to see what I'm talking about.

You're already panicking over nothing. Start at the beginning of the post and go through it slowly. You'll start to see the things I mention - because you should be looking at it specifically.

Next time you'll start seeing these things too, because you'll know some of the things to look for and what the issues might look like.

 

[WJ]

Start thinking. Really. I give you options. You can choose any of them. There's rarely a definite answer.