Leeds United - a tactical experiment

[aramis]

Ok, thanks.

 

[aramis]

I'm taking every paragraph and see what I can do.

 

[WJ]

I'm taking every paragraph and see what I can do.

I posted a long post. It took time for me to do, btw. It may be a lot to take in. Start slowly and go through each issue on its own, one at a time. I broke it up into sections so that you can do that.

 

[aramis]

Get more cover. Solving the DLP/D and IF/A///CM/A issue will help already.

Firstly I changed the IFA to IFS.( for the obvious reasons you spoonfeed me)

The DLP/D was brought into play often --- because he's also a playmaker.

Secondly I changed the DLPD into a DMD- hold position more than DLPD , hold the ball while the team is reorganising after the transition phase ( you said more cover and that I have six players upfront), recycle possession from deep ( kind of what i wanted the DLP to do) and less hollywood balls cause I already have one player who is doing that. It's this the right role?
He is not a playmaker anymore.

I told you to look at the differences between the two AP/S players you used. The latter did better than the main AP/S with his hollywood balls.

Alex Mowatt played there against Cardiff. He has no PPM's. Cook has two: Runs with ball through centre and TRIES KILLER BALLS OFTEN ( which probably I shouldn't have learned him). So what should I do? Start him training not to do what I've learned him ? Start a new save and not teach him that PPM? Or put him to play shorter?

I don't know if the interceptions are that bad, but look in the middle. That surely stands out to you? ONE player lost the ball all those times. Lewis Cook, the AP/A, keeps getting the ball and then he turns to his right. There he has only one passing option and that's the IF/A, who he keeps missing. An option there is to let the IF/A not be an IF/A to make himself more available. Or let Lewis take more time on the ball to make better decisions. Or restrict his freedom by giving him a different role. There are a lot of things you can do.

Cook usually plays as an AP(S).
If i make the IFA an IFS all my three forwards will be on support duty. I'll have one attack minded player in the entire team- the CMA.
How do I let Lewis have more time on the ball i don't know.
A different role? I've build this tactic based on the idea that Cook will be my playmaker. I wanted to develop him as a playmaker, an advanced playmaker. I'm still willing to change his role if this is what is needed. But what role? If i make him a RPM he will roam from position and probably the right flank will be to attacking and to exposed. CMS? BBM? I think I could play him as a CMS and by not removing the PPM "tries killer balls often" he will act as a playmaker but he will not exagerate with his holywood balls?!!!
Or i could simply play Cook on the left and Mowatt on the right?

Dallas, the IF/A on the left looked quite dangerous at times. It looks like the CM/A interfered less. Did the CM/A have Drops Deep PPM maybe?

No, he has no PPM but it is a more defensive type of player.

You asked "why can't we score?". First thing I did? I went to go look at the shots and what happened.
Now straight away(!!!!) I see 14 shots but only 5 on target. That immediately sets the alarm bells off.

Antenucci has had 6 shots, with only 2 on target. He is wasting shots.

Don't really know what to do. I instructed them to work ball into box because they were wasting possession, shots, anything...

He seems rush a lot of what he does, mostly because there isn't much time to do something else. He always has a defender on him and there seems to be a million covering his 2 passing options - the IF/As. Again, obvious stuff.

YES, they always have a defender on them( my IF's and F9) and YES there seems to be a million covering his 2 passing options - the IF/As ! That one I saw it myself! But I had no clue what to do! Still don't!

The defence seems to have far too much time to get into place.

So should I play at a higher tempo?

Speaking of cover, does your FB/S have Get Further Forward PPM? If he has, that's also not good. He needs to stay back more.

PPM's: Runs with ball down left

Runs With Ball Down Left
Meaning: The player will look to run down the left side of the pitch with the ball.
Positives: The player can carry the ball forwards, reducing the pressure on defence.
Negatives: If the player chooses to run with the ball when a pass would have been more beneficial.
Attributes Required: Dribbling, technique, balance, agility.
Best Suited Positions: Wide players. Ideally wingers, but also consider teaching it to your wingbacks.

Should i start training him to drop this PPM?

Thing is, you have 3 players who bomb forward. When crosses come in, in the Attacking phase, you still have 4 in the box. You're way over-crowding the box! Who's making plays? One guy in the middle is expected to feed 4 guys - and those 4 guys are taking all the defenders with them, so there are a lot of bodies in the box. It's too aggressive.

This is something i intended to do but i wasn't thinking it was a mistake. I wanted my AP to have players upfront to who he can pass as i wanted more of a forward play and less backwards or lateral passes. i never tought i was over-crowding the box.

those 4 guys are taking all the defenders with them

- this mostly i wasn't taking into consideration

Dallas (15) had an orange one there that was a good chance, but the keeper did well to rush it. Look at that clip. It STARTS with you having 4 players ON the D-Line, un-involved and not pulling anyone, anywhere.

So my own players are stabbing me?! The ones i gave attack duty are going forward and basically do worse than nothing by drawing the opposition with them and over-crowding the box, making it harder for me to score? So i'm not scoring because i instructed to many players to go forward? And i undo that by giving them support duties?

Now i saw what you mean - but before i couldn't have thinked this was wrong.

Botaka's shots from IF/A on the right seemed weak. Off-balance? What's his balance attribute? He didn't seem good so far advanced there.

Balance 12
Finishing 6 ( i instructed him to shot less from the start, that was the only PI and it was just for Botaka)
Composure, Concentration and decisions 8
PPM'S: cuts inside from right

Again, did you watch the match? You can't score if you had **** chances.

Agree. How do i improve those **** chances?

So I have to start a new save? I go on with this one and try to turn things around?

Thank you for taking your time and answer me so amply.

 

[aramis]

And now I'm gonna watch those matches again.

 

[aramis]

Don't give up. Calm down and read again what WJ has said.

Ask these questions (to yourself).

1. How do I want to play
2. Can I do that right now with the players I have
3. Who are my best players and how do I get the best out of them
4. Where are my massive weak links, and how do I protect them
5. What do I want to achieve in the first season, is it realistic and achievable
6. What are my team strengths and weaknesses

If you do that people, me included, will try and help you.

I play FM exclusively with Leeds and know the squad inside out. I'm no expert on tactics, but you have WJ's attention for now, so take a breath and look again.

Cheers

I play FM exclusively with Leeds

I thought I was the only one. I also play only with Leeds for a long time now.

 

[WJ]

You're still asking completely unnecessary questions.

I'll just answer selectively. Cook. Why would you want to change him FROM a playmaker TO another playmaker? Has he got high Flair? He's trying those balls for a reason. If he had less creative freedom (non-playmaker role) he may not try these flair moves so often. On the other hand, I like the idea of possibly swapping the CMs. If Cook then turns, he'll have a ST, MCR and a AMR to pick out. That at least shows that some thought was put into what I said.


Don't just send everyone forward to charge into the box. As I said, they're taking defenders with them too. Imagine if an attacker dropped deep, bringing a defender with him and then someone else bursts into that gap? The way it was, with all 4 up front, that initial part didn't happen.

Attack duties (apart from playmakers) will bomb forward ahead of play/where the ball is.

Support duties will keep up with play/support play.

Defend duties stay behind play/the ball.

Try and remember that. You only need one or two attack duties and maybe 3 at most. You can do more, but that's extreme.

 

[macca72]

I'll give you a few pointers on the squad, see if it helps alongside the great advice WJ is giving.

1. Byram - He has an unhelpful PPM if you want to use him as a cautious full back, but he can be deadly in the MR slot
2. Bellusci & Bamba have terrible PPM's for DC's. My advice is get rid asap and work on securing the defence
3. Cook - Fabulous player, don't play him at DMC or in a holding role, he likes to run with the ball so bear that in mind, I'd personally give him a standard CM role and let him do it
4. Wood - Not really any good for anything other than a DF or TM role, he plays with his back to goal so train that away or use him in an appropriate role
5. Dallas - Top class at this level and can play all over. He has a bad PPM for shooting from all over the shop, so reign it in.
6. Mowatt - Great, pick a role for Mowatt and train him in it, he has a good spread of attributes and no PPM's, he's yours to mould.
7. Taylor is again more of an attacking full back, check his PPM, so be wary of him getting caught upfield with the ball, make sure he has close passing options.
8. Murphy - Probably the only true playmaker, but I don't like using him in that role as his lack of strength means he can get robbed easy, he's another for a vanilla CM role with a couple of PI's to get the best of his playmaking ability

Antenucci, Doukara can be useful, but I tend to let them go to raise funds. Depends on how you want to play.

In summary...

There's a few players to get rid of to generate cash. If you want to play with a proper holding DM, you'll need to buy one. Don't get tempted to have playmakers all over the shop, make sure you focus in on getting the best out of Mowatt, Byram, Murphy, Cook & Taylor.

 

[WJ]

I'll give you a few pointers on the squad

This side of the game is just as important.

I don't know any of their attributes of PPMs so these should be very useful.

----

Antenuccui wasted shots as a F9 and also, these players pick up the ball and run, looking for shooting/passing opportunities. The fact that Macca doesn't rate Wood, makes me think he lacks the vision and dribbling to do it anyway? Why use the role?

Consider a DF or even DLF role. He'll hold up the ball (keeping in mind his preference for his back to goal) and lay if off to the runners, who are the LCM (CM/A) and the AMR (IF/A) right now.

 

[oceanstone]

Advanced Forward

Hi WJ,

I have a question regarding the lone striker in 451 formation.

Does advanced forward work in this type of formation ? I tried a few times but it seems to me that AF usually gets isolated and becomes ineffective. I usually go with AP(A) behind lone striker and LEFT winger (A) and Right IF(S).

A rough idea on how to make AF works in this formation is greatly appreciated.

Thanks

PS: I know It's not my thread to ask but I think it might benefit OP in term of tactical knowledge

 

[WJ]

Hi WJ,

I have a question regarding the lone striker in 451 formation.

Does advanced forward work in this type of formation ? I tried a few times but it seems to me that AF usually gets isolated and becomes ineffective. I usually go with AP(A) behind lone striker and LEFT winger (A) and Right IF(S).

A rough idea on how to make AF works in this formation is greatly appreciated.

Thanks

PS: I know It's not my thread to ask but I think it might benefit OP in term of tactical knowledge

It can work, but you need to work the ball forward on other ways rather than relying on the AF to hold it up. I still prefer the lone striker in a 4-5-1 to be on support duty so that he's more involved and not isolated. He becomes an outlet to hold onto the ball too. But getting back to your question, it can work.

 

[aramis]

Firstly, I want to thank you all for your help.

I play FM only with Leeds for a couple of years now, I know the squad, their attributes , PPM's etc
Macca, thank you very much for your advice on the squad.

1. Byram - He has an unhelpful PPM if you want to use him as a cautious full back, but he can be deadly in the MR slot

One of the first ideas I had for this Leeds squad was to play a 4141 or even a 451. Those formations gave me more options on the wings than this 41221 I'm currently using , and one of those was to use Byram as a wide midfielder on the right side , with an attack duty to make the best use of his PPM.
Botaka may become a good winger( and I should drop that PPM -cuts inside from right - if i'll want to use him as a W) but he is not a good IF, the role that i use him now. Berardi is a good right back, performing well when played. A flank made of Berardi as a FB and Byram as WM may be a better option than one who's playing Byram as a WB and Botaka as an IF ( he doesn't have the attributes to be an efficient IF in my opinion- i will explain why i used him as an IF ). Even on the left side of the pitch I'm sure Dallas will be more efficient as a WM than as an IF.
My reasoning for going from a 4141 to a 41221 was very simple: I couldn't make the players score in the 4141 and couldn't get nothing from Wood- that's probably due to a poor midfield setup, lack of support and poor role selection for the striker. I did tried him , with no success as an AF, DLF(S) and DLF(A). So, I tried to use him as a support player, as a decoy, played him as an F9 to drop deep and make space for the IF , who would have been the main scorers. As you all saw, it didn't worked.

4. Wood - Not really any good for anything other than a DF or TM role, he plays with his back to goal so train that away or use him in an appropriate role

The fact that Macca doesn't rate Wood, makes me think he lacks the vision and dribbling to do it anyway? Why use the role?

Completely agree with you both. I explained my reasoning above. Indeed the player isn't an F9 - he doesn't have the right attributes nor the PPM's . He wasn't good neither as a DLF. I haven't tried him as a DF yet.

I also believe that 451 will be even better suited for this Leeds squad. The reason for not implementing it is very simple: I have no idea how to setup the midfield. In a 451, one can play Cook, Mowatt and Murphy at the same time , and use this great advantage.
Maybe:
GK(D)
FB(S) CD(D) CD(D) WB(S)or FB(S)

WM(A) CM(S) CM(D) CM(A) WM(S)

DF(S) or DLF(S)

Like in:

Silvestri

Berardi Bellusci Cooper Taylor

Byram Mowatt Murphy Cook Dallas

Wood

If you want to play with a proper holding DM, you'll need to buy one

.

That's the problem in a 4141: I don't have that holding midfielder. And I start every save with disabled transfers in the first window. I could buy one in January if i get/make some cash but my first priority is that:

2. Bellusci & Bamba have terrible PPM's for DC's. My advice is get rid asap and work on securing the defence

I have two players shortlisted and my scouts are watching them for two months: a strong defender from premier league who usually gets transfer listed in january and one of my favorite defenders and another one I have found a league below who has great work rate ( which we severely lack as a team) but kind of lacks concentration and decision.
I would like to put an anchor there but I don't have one.
So probably a 451 will be more suited then a 4141 at the moment.

1. How do I want to play

I really don't have many preferences at the moment, I'm just trying to make a working system. Anyway , build from the back and avoid long balls.Make use of our midfield. More than that i don't know what to say. I don't wanna lose many matches, I'm a terrific loser, really don't know to lose it makes me mad, it makes me put the match in only commentary mode and high speed, it makes me throw the PC on the window ( I think it was FM07 when I did it )
I also believe that at this moment the team is only capable of playing a standard game. We really don't have the team attributes to play defensive, counter or attacking.
The fluidity setting I'm not entirely certain. We could have gone for a structured shape due to having some poor players who should have restricted creativity but I chose Fluid cause I have some good players in midfield who I want to play their natural game, I want to be a more compact and hard to break team, and it's more enjoyable to watch for me.

2. Can I do that right now with the players I have

Play a standard game with a fluid shape? I believe we can.
Anything more than that I doubt i can.

3. Who are my best players and how do I get the best out of them

My best players are: Cook, Mowatt, Byram, Taylor- followed by Dallas( which I'm currently wasting) and Murphy.
How can I get the best out of them? I kind of don't know how to answer at this one.
I was thinking that the best way to get the best out of them was to play them in their best role. Now I believe that the best way is to develop a system who use them to their best abilities - attributes and PPM's based ) SO:
- i should play them (basic one)
- cook is the best one of them all and i should allow him to do his thing - run with the ball so maybe play him as a CMA
- Byram gets into opposition area so i should find a way to allow him that and not to restrain it ?
Here i may need some help.

4. Where are my massive weak links, and how do I protect them

The weakest link is the central defence: lack of concentration, lack of decision making, composure, teamwork, work rate, terrible PPM's as you said. How could I protect them ? Shot them dead! ) By not putting any more pressure on them ( i'll do just that by playing a more defensive or counter style of football- there terrible lack of concentration will kill me), by allowing the other players to help them defensively( fluid mentality?) , by throwing an anchor or another defensive option to support them, by keeping the flanks more conservative?...

Other weak links are: laziness -the team general lack of work rate( which makes me think i should avoid to always close down) and poor decision making.

And another weak link- myself- very bad at tactics ( but I'm pretty good at finding cheap players, developing scouting systems , negotiating , buying cheap, developing players , making money ).

5. What do I want to achieve in the first season, is it realistic and achievable

The board wants mid table. I want first six. I don't necessarily want promotion in the first season , i want to have a decent team when heading into Premier. Realistic? I believe that someone who's good at tactics can get them win the Championship in the first year. With me in charge? God help us!

6. What are my team strengths and weaknesses

Strengths:
1. Cook, Mowatt, Byram, Taylor- already good , young and with bags of potential
2. Good midfield - good passing, technique and teamwork

Weaknesses:
1. Central defenders
2. Low work rate, concentration and decision making , low raw pace in the team, no speedy guy
3. Weak strike force

At this moment my team is 10th place in Championship, at the start of december. View attachment 203378

But we are really desperate for a win :
View attachment 203375

My opinion is that Macca observations are corect and I should retreat those IF into the midfield strata. That will mean that my midfield structure and striker role will also have to change. What defensive shape should we take I'm not sure: 4141 or 451 ? And how i'll do that work really don't know. But the next match is vital.

 

[aramis]

Oceanstone, thank you for posting here. Believe me, any help I can get is more then welcome.

 

[aramis]

Off to analysis. Look at each of the 6 shots, he didn't have even one decent chance. 3 were from outside the area. The others were all around the edge of the are, but one was blocked, one was a volley with his left and the other a snap shot also with the left. He seems rush a lot of what he does, mostly because there isn't much time to do something else. He always has a defender on him and there seems to be a million covering his 2 passing options - the IF/As. Again, obvious stuff. The defence seems to have far too much time to get into place.

The defence seems to have far too much time to get into place.

This could have been reduced by my team playing a higher D-line?

 

[aramis]

On the other side that higher d-line will have also reduced my own team space in the opposition half , which was already over-crowded ? So to fix that problem I should have used a higher d-line at the same time with more support duties and less attacking ones?

That takes me to the AP which I wrongly believed he needed more players upfront. Instead he needed more players more closely to him? So maybe that CMA becoming a CMS would have been a better change then the IFA into IFS? And even the right IFA into a IFS or something on support duty? This really makes me think it would have been a lot better if i started with those IF in the midfield strata from beginning.

And the DLPD in the DM slot , wasn't he kind of wasting what i tried to do by using the AP? By being a playmaker he wants the ball , he wants passes to go through him .... he was stealing fame from the AP if i can say it like this?

 

[aramis]

And, because we have a weak defence but a good midfield, good technique, good passing , I was wondering if it wouldn't be a good idea to use possession as a way to defend? defending by retaining possession? I mean a standard mentality orientated to keep possession and build slowly from the back?

 

[WJ]

This could have been reduced by my team playing a higher D-line?

What does a higher line have to do with your build up play?

 

[aramis]

I was thinking about what you said - reducing the opposition time on the ball and i said one way of doing this it would have been to play with a high/er d line .

 

[aramis]

Put some pressure on the opposition ...

 

[WJ]

I was thinking about what you said - reducing the opposition time on the ball and i said one way of doing this it would have been to play with a high/er d line .

Yes, but you quoted a paragraph where I was talking about your slow build up play, which has nothing to do with your D-Line.



Have you re-watched the matches yet?