Wenger: I won't splash cash

I don't see why fans of other teams need to get involved in whether or not Arsenal buy players? At least this way they can carry on "building for the future" or whatever it is that's going on so one less team to worry about in the title race?

Although on the other hand I think Arsenal have picked up like 1 point in the last 12 games against Chelsea and Manchester United.. Hardly title challenging stats?
 
We re talking about his currrent squad.. its still in every ******* competition.. and anyway hes run the club like every club should be.. not like Man utd.. we dont want to end up with the same amount of debt as u pieces of ****.. i mean the day will come when the debt catches up with u.. and u will no longer be the force u once were.. city will take over as the best club in manchester.

have u been living under a ****** rock for 6 years, our debt was brought upon us by the glazers
 
At the end of the day Wenger is looking at the long term financial stability of the club. Don't like the man but he has done a fantastic job at Arsenal, whether rival fans like it or not, they are probably the best run club in the Premier League and are in a better financial position than most. They may not win trophies on a regular basis but they are still a very good club, fair play Wenger.
 
still if it is one off payments, surely one year, just one, they could say, pay less then the others year, as i would guess, one of payments, are not regular like there repayments schedule, so they could improve the squad..... Just for one year!!!

They could yes - which is how they picked up Arshavin. But that relies on them maintaining the profit ratios by selling or cutting costs elsewhere - which then becomes something of a robbing Peter to pay Paul exercise. They're limited in what they can do right now but once that stadium is paid off, they'll be an absolute monster should all that extra revenue be put into the team.
 
They could yes - which is how they picked up Arshavin. But that relies on them maintaining the profit ratios by selling or cutting costs elsewhere - which then becomes something of a robbing Peter to pay Paul exercise. They're limited in what they can do right now but once that stadium is paid off, they'll be an absolute monster should all that extra revenue be put into the team.

Fair enough, Just Profits keep raising.... So It must be worth the risk, if it wins them a league or 2, because Revenue really would go through the roof.
 
Fair enough, Just Profits keep raising.... So It must be worth the risk, if it wins them a league or 2, because Revenue really would go through the roof.

Profits are primarily rising because they're finally selling off the Highbury flats. Their sale was factored into the calculations for how to pay off the stadium debt so the choice would be in running up tens of millions in extra interest payments or to spend on the squad in the way you're suggesting.

A league win for Arsenal would only bring an extra couple of million in hard cash which is why Wenger makes the point that it's diminishing returns financially right now to push for that. Certainly in a domestic market where Man City inflate the fees and wages so much currently.

They've been planning for medium-term success with the way their finances have been structured - planning for when only revenues raised by a club can be used by a club in the transfer market. Fly in the ointment is that makes them a very tempting takeover target for someone who might want to divert that revenue into his own pocket.
 
Profits are primarily rising because they're finally selling off the Highbury flats. Their sale was factored into the calculations for how to pay off the stadium debt so the choice would be in running up tens of millions in extra interest payments or to spend on the squad in the way you're suggesting.

A league win for Arsenal would only bring an extra couple of million in hard cash which is why Wenger makes the point that it's diminishing returns financially right now to push for that. Certainly in a domestic market where Man City inflate the fees and wages so much currently.

They've been planning for medium-term success with the way their finances have been structured - planning for when only revenues raised by a club can be used by a club in the transfer market. Fly in the ointment is that makes them a very tempting takeover target for someone who might want to divert that revenue into his own pocket.

I can Understand all that, But surely winning the league/ champions league would improve them as a commercial outlet, and then make them even more money.
 
arsenal desperately need a strong commanding cb and a striker that gets 20+ goals a season

A solid goalkeeper is more of a necessity than a striker, we get every player chipping in with goals and generally score a good amount per season, it's the conceding of goals that is our problem.
 
I can Understand all that, But surely winning the league/ champions league would improve them as a commercial outlet, and then make them even more money.

Not sure Scott - gate receipts and matchday revenues seem to be pretty much maximised as they are. Which really only leaves improved sponsorship deals (although their current ones still have a while to run don't they?) and increased merchandising. Would that be sufficient to even break even with costs? Seems like the Arsenal commercial team doesn't reckon so at the moment.
 
Not sure Scott - gate receipts and matchday revenues seem to be pretty much maximised as they are. Which really only leaves improved sponsorship deals (although their current ones still have a while to run don't they?) and increased merchandising. Would that be sufficient to even break even with costs? Seems like the Arsenal commercial team doesn't reckon so at the moment.

fair enough, there paid to do that, but with League success, tickets prices would be increased( even more) and stuff like that, plus it is nice to win stuff as a club.
 
If only we had more people like him throughout the world.

Unfortunately in the age where we no longer see or hold our own means of living in our hands, we think we have unlimited supplies of it.

Suppose that would be true if governments keep bailing people out and wracking up debts. But that can't last forever. Sorry if it's off topic but I think it hits the issue at hand.

No, you're 100% on topic, just as much as anything in the thread. The Premiership is the perfect microcosm of everything that is happening in the global economy right now. There's globalization and financial liberalization (foreign players and owners coming in, and foreign money in the form of overseas audiences, TV deals, sponsorship deals, etc.), and everyone is happy as it totally changes everything and times seem to be good (the quality of the Prem was good, the quality of life in the 90's and 00's were good). Sure, you see an incredible rise in asset values and short term profits, but there is no concern for long-term financial stability. Neither are the gains evenly spread out: in the 90's and 00's, the wealthy benefited much more than everyone else, in the case of English football over the past few years, it was the Big 4.

You have many people who buy these entities with capital gains (selling at a higher price later for a profit) as their only intention. They don't care about the long-term solvency of what they're involved in. And of course, since everyone is doing it, you can rely on the state to bail you out. Now other leagues have been more concerned with long-term financial stability and equality (the Bundesliga). It cost them in terms of short term success, but it's the best supported league in the world (probably because of their parity of the clubs, which ultimately comes down to finances), and its future is very bright. The parallels are remarkable, and what is happening in football these days is very indicative of what is happening in the global economy.

I don't have any particular affiliation to Arsenal but I always root for them in the Prem. It's amazing what they've done on such a tight budget: they play by far the most attractive soccer in England, not to mention they have been incredibly consistent. OK, they haven't won any trophies in years but they usually have a chance at winning every competition they're in (except maybe not the CL) and almost do, only to be held back at the end because of all of the injuries they pick up. Wen you play good technical football like Arsenal does, you're going to get hacked to pieces in the Prem. When you're in 4 competitions and have that many injuries and operate under such a tight budget, you're really stretched, which is why they haven't quite been able to win anything.

But compare them to the other teams...I said it last year (and was very surprised at how well they started off this year), but Chelsea has a good shot at not staying in the top 4 this season. They have an aging core and they've invested in young players, but none of them have enough experience. The gap between their Starting XI and their bench players is pretty wide. This isn't as much the case at Arsenal, where Arsene keeps a steady stream of youngsters rising through the ranks. They have a set style of play at Arsenal that the young players are indoctrinated into, which is why they can afford to lose so many players and still compete.

Can you imagine how bad Chelsea would be if they lost as many important players as Arsenal has over the past few years? Chelsea has had an injury crisis in the past months (like Arsenal does every season), and they have been completely incapable of dealing with it. It's because without their core, all they have are a few random young players who don't have any experience that can't pick up the slack when needed to. They have no identity, no style of play. They've just always relied on buying the best players available and playing boring, efficient soccer. Over the past few years they've stuck with their core and haven't spent a lot, but that only means that they have no good replacements because they haven't developed their youth like Arsenal has. Arsenal IMO is a lesser version of Barcelona (they certainly operate on a tighter budget) that is consistent because they have a style of play and stick to it. I think this is equally as admirable as their budget management, and leads to consistency in the long term.

After that there's United...I think they follow a similar philosophy in terms of youngsters, but they do spend a lot more than Arsenal (how much for Berbatov and Rooney?). You can't say that that hasn't contributed to the debt. True, it's the Glazers' fault, but still, if Arsene were there, I'm sure he would have gotten close to the same results at a much lower cost, with the club in a much better position for the future (to be honest none of United's youngsters really impress me, and it's undeniable that Wenger is one of the best at spotting young talent).

As for City, they're not there yet. They've just thrown a bunch of good players together and expected results. It takes a long time to create a good squad, to get system in place that consistently delivers results and can manage taking new players. It took Chelsea years before they were great, even after they bought a lot of good players.

Liverpool: look what happened to them? They spent much more than Arsenal and they're looking at becoming a mid-tier club.

Tottenham: yeah sure they spent a bunch of money recently and have a good squad now, but we'll see if they can be consistent.

Honestly I think Arsenal has done very well for themselves over the past few years in paying for their stadium and leaving the club in a great position for the future. Although, maybe some of the other criticisms are right...how much is the title worth to you guys? I honestly think you could have won several trophies if you spent 10-15 million on a keeper, defender, and/or defensive mid. You're so close to winning, only another player or two would do it, and you end up coming just short every season. Is the title not worth that much to you? Maybe you would only make a few extra million (I think it'd be more, you'd grab more fans in Asia and the US if you won more titles), but even if you lost some money because of it, say 7 million, wouldn't that be worth it? Is victory not worth 7 million quid? I don't think that'd make a huge dent in your checkbook, and I think a few trophies are worth that much. I dunno.

Anyway, all of this is coming from a neutral observer as I don't support Arsenal. If they didn't have this philosophy than I wouldn't want them to do well in the Prem. But they seem to be the only team in the Prem that cares about financial stability, developing young players, and playing attractive football. In my opinion, that's EXACTLY how a club SHOULD BE run, and they're a model for good finance in business and in sport. I hope though, for the sake of the Premiership, that Arsene's successor has the same commitment to long-term financial prudence, youth development, and playing quality football. Sorry for the rant.
 
have u been living under a ****** rock for 6 years, our debt was brought upon us by the glazers

are u ******* stupid.. i didnt say thats how man u got into debt, i just sed we dont want to end up like them in debt.. so stop talking out ur **** u stupid piece of **** and get your facts straight
 
One of the best posts of the year there from curtis.
 
Arsenal IMO is a lesser version of Barcelona (they certainly operate on a tighter budget)

Excellent post. I agree with everything but few points. Barcelona are second highest spenders in this decade. They have spent close to 750 Million. They have excellent youth players but still they spend cash.


After that there's United...I think they follow a similar philosophy in terms of youngsters, but they do spend a lot more than Arsenal (how much for Berbatov and Rooney?). You can't say that that hasn't contributed to the debt. True, it's the Glazers' fault, but still, if Arsene were there, I'm sure he would have gotten close to the same results at a much lower cost, with the club in a much better position for the future (to be honest none of United's youngsters really impress me, and it's undeniable that Wenger is one of the best at spotting young talent).

We spend lot more as we earned that, it was not some sudar daddy's money. When you condsider our Net spending to our revenue, it is not even comparable. No Berbatov, Rio, Rooney's transfers didnt contribute towards Debt. We were excellent financially, making endless money. So we spent hard earned cash to build the team and replace our stars. We have every right to do it as we earned that money and not on someone mercy. What we have achieved after Glazer take overr is truely exceptional. You can check net spending along with the trophies won. Then you will see how we are operating.

And Regarding United Youngsters, we have few quality youngster. Rafael, Fabio, Cleverley, Welbeck, Matty James, Ravel Morrison Smalling, Evans.

And Anderson, Nani, Hernandez are just 22-23. So they have 10 more years in them.

But they seem to be the only team in the Prem that cares about financial stability, developing young players, and playing attractive football. In my opinion, that's EXACTLY how a club SHOULD BE run, and they're a model for good finance in business and in sport.

They are one of the clubs who cares about Stability. For all the spendings Spurs are in excellent financial condition. We would have laughing at whole world with our financial power had it not been for Glazers. We ccare about stability. We always did. Even when we are paying massive interests, we are managing them. How is it possible? Coz of the model we rely on.

Had it not been for Glazers, in Financial fair play time, we would have ruled the entire market. But sadly thats not the case coz of take over.

Developing youngsters, Many clubs do the same. We do that. Everton are becoming one of the best in the country. There is always West Ham when it comes to academy.


Thats it. Yours was excellent post, maybe that bias towards Arsenal saying they are the only club. Apart from that i agree completely. :)
 
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Arsenal needs to fix up that shabby defence first of all Koscielny is average at best, and Squillaci isn't half bad but he doesn't have the pace to keep up with faster players and Clichy?...excellent attacking wise but his defensive abilities are suspect. Wenger needs to break the bank to sign a decent left back and centre back, this philosophy of raising young players will only get you so far. I'd go as far as saying that Sagna and Vermealen are the closest things to being solid defenders in that line up. The rest are suspect, and that shows in big games. Having said that, another defensive midfielder wouldn't go a miss Song's class, but Denilson isn't big enough to push his weight around the pitch. Diabys a beast attacking wise but lacks that tenacious tackle that the likes of Cambiasso or Mascherano possess. Honestly I'd say beef that midfield and defence up, but I digress Arsenal are looking pretty in the table right now. It's too early to dismiss them from the championship just yet. But you need to ask yourself when you lose at home to teams like West Brom and Newcastle whether or not they have the drive to go the whole distance. I hope I'm wrong though.
 
One of the best posts of the year there from curtis.

Thanks!

Excellent post. I agree with everything but few points. Barcelona are second highest spenders in this decade. They have spent close to 750 Million. They have excellent youth players but still they spend cash.

To a certain extent, I agree with you...Barcelona follow only two parts of the "holy trinity" very well: developing youth players and playing attractive soccer. The reason I cited them as such a well-run club was because I love their philosophy. They have a religion: playing the Barcelona brand of pure, beautiful football, and this philosophy is taught at all levels of the club. The youngsters are raised on it, and the senior team looks to them first because they have the been trained in the ways of Barcelona football and are trained perfectly to the roles of Barca's unique formation and style. How many first team Barca players came from their youth team? Valdes, Pique, Puyol, Iniesta, Xavi, Busquets (who is a better player every time I see him), Messi, Pedro...that's 8 of 11 players. Bojan is coming around the corner, and they have several other very promising youth prospects.

This is why I admire them more than any club in the world (although I'm not a Barca fan). They have assembled arguably the greatest team ever primarily from the ranks of their youth squad. It didn't happen overnight, and they struggled a lot in the earlier years of the decade, but their long-term vision paid off in the end. There is such a thing as the Barca DNA, and their system is so pure that world class players can't even adjust to it. Ibrahimovic couldn't. Mascherano can't. And even David Villa hasn't been really all that consistent for them. When they had to make a coaching change, who did they pick...the best, most expensive manager available (perhaps Mourinho)? They choose the inexperienced coach of their reserve team, someone who had played at the club and was familiar with its philosophy. And they won the treble in his first season. Not to mention the guy is a total class act, one of the most humble people in football. I really gained a lot of respect for him after watching the press conference after the Superclasico. He talks about the Barcelona philosophy, and that's the reason behind their existence, more than making money or winning trophies. And he totally avoids accepting any praise from the media. If you can understand Spanish, definitely check it out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbF4pGHg4-w

Now as far as their budget goes, true, Guardiola made some expensive mistakes. Chygrnsky was a horrible decision. They wasted a whole lot of money on the Ibra debacle. And Mascherano was not worth the money when you have Busquets emerging as a world class DM. But also remember that Barcelona just signed the first shirt sponsorship deal in their history. And they don't do anything extra to pander to overseas markets. They aren't nearly as commercialized as some of the Premiership clubs. And their debts are mostly non-football related: 8 of their starting 11 were for free.

True, Arsenal aim for quality football, youth development, and financial prudency...but how many of their players came from their academy? I really admire Arsenal, but for me, Barca is the best club in the world right now.

We spend lot more as we earned that, it was not some sudar daddy's money. When you condsider our Net spending to our revenue, it is not even comparable. No Berbatov, Rio, Rooney's transfers didnt contribute towards Debt. We were excellent financially, making endless money. So we spent hard earned cash to build the team and replace our stars. We have every right to do it as we earned that money and not on someone mercy. What we have achieved after Glazer take overr is truely exceptional. You can check net spending along with the trophies won. Then you will see how we are operating.

And Regarding United Youngsters, we have few quality youngster. Rafael, Fabio, Cleverley, Welbeck, Matty James, Ravel Morrison Smalling, Evans.

And Anderson, Nani, Hernandez are just 22-23. So they have 10 more years in them.

I do agree with you. When I first got into the sport I chose Leeds as my English team (it was the era of Viduka, Kewell, Smith, and then a little later a bunch of great young players like Lennon, Milner, Robinson, etc.), so I am a bit biased against ManU. However, they have been incredibly consistent over the past two decades, and yes, they're a very well-run club. Fergie has a great eye for talent, and they have a system in place that has kept them going for so long...you get players like Giggs and Scholes who have played since the early days of the Prem and are still good for them because United runs through their blood.

What I will say though is that ManU in the past two decades has been an extremely commercially successful club (especially making money overseas, Americans and Asians worship ManU and buy a lot of their gear), and this certainly contributed to their success. The ridiculous inflation of transfers and wages didn't really pick up until the 00's (of course Real Madrid had a part to play in this), and back in the 90's, I'm pretty sure ManU were the biggest spenders in England. Granted, the transfers and wages back then are very small in comparison to what they are today, but still, this enabled them to establish themselves as England's best team, and Ferguson and their system has kept them there. But do you think this would have happened had Ferguson left or retired long ago? I think he's really the only reason they've been so consistent for so long...had he left, I bet they would have struggled (big shoes for the new guy to fill), would have gone through a few managers quickly, and spent a big of money on players that didn't fit in well.

I'm not saying that ManU didn't 'deserve' their money or that they are financially imprudent (the Glazers are another perfect symbol of what has happened in the world over the past 10-20 years...using assets they don't really have to secure a loan they had no business getting)...it's just that Arsenal has run on a tighter budget (they aren't as popular around the world), so I really respect the fact that they have been so consistent. Anyways, you're right, Arsenal isn't the only club that cares about these things, ManU deserves a lot of respect too....but personally I think it has more to do with Fergie than the club.

As far as United youngsters go: Nani and Hernandez are class. I think everyone knew Nani was going to be great, but Hernandez was a steal. To be honest I have never seen Anderson have a better than average game, I don't know what the big deal about him is. I don't think either of the Da Silva twins will turn out. They don't play good enough defense to be a defender in a league like the Premiership, and I don't think they're as skilled as some of the South Americans I watch every weekend. Evans has had some pretty terrible games, hasn't he? Smalling I haven't seen enough of. You definitely know more than I do since I don't really watch that much Premiership. But I think in terms of how many young players Arsenal has churned through its ranks over the past few decades, they're the best for youth development in the Prem. Their academy certainly doesn't seem to be though, and they get almost all of their young players from other clubs. West Ham and Everton have great academies, and I like Everton and want to see them do well. It's a shame that West Ham will probably go down this season.

They are one of the clubs who cares about Stability. For all the spendings Spurs are in excellent financial condition. We would have laughing at whole world with our financial power had it not been for Glazers. We ccare about stability. We always did. Even when we are paying massive interests, we are managing them. How is it possible? Coz of the model we rely on.

Had it not been for Glazers, in Financial fair play time, we would have ruled the entire market. But sadly thats not the case coz of take over.

Developing youngsters, Many clubs do the same. We do that. Everton are becoming one of the best in the country. There is always West Ham when it comes to academy.


Thats it. Yours was excellent post, maybe that bias towards Arsenal saying they are the only club. Apart from that i agree completely. :)

Yeah we pretty much agree, thanks for the compliments. I do think that you guys are pretty much a lock for the title this year. Chelsea won't be a challenger unless some of their rotation players improve drastically. It's too soon for Man City, and I don't think Tottenham is good enough. Arsenal will be your only competition, and I'm sure they'll have another injury crisis that will cost them the title. It's too bad though since I thought this would be their year...and you guys have won so much in the past few years, it's a shame Arsenal won't get to see the fruits of their labor pay off. It'd do the Prem a lot of good if they won the title I think, maybe change a few minds.

Arsenal needs to fix up that shabby defence first of all Koscielny is average at best, and Squillaci isn't half bad but he doesn't have the pace to keep up with faster players and Clichy?...excellent attacking wise but his defensive abilities are suspect. Wenger needs to break the bank to sign a decent left back and centre back, this philosophy of raising young players will only get you so far. I'd go as far as saying that Sagna and Vermealen are the closest things to being solid defenders in that line up. The rest are suspect, and that shows in big games. Having said that, another defensive midfielder wouldn't go a miss Song's class, but Denilson isn't big enough to push his weight around the pitch. Diabys a beast attacking wise but lacks that tenacious tackle that the likes of Cambiasso or Mascherano possess. Honestly I'd say beef that midfield and defence up, but I digress Arsenal are looking pretty in the table right now. It's too early to dismiss them from the championship just yet. But you need to ask yourself when you lose at home to teams like West Brom and Newcastle whether or not they have the drive to go the whole distance. I hope I'm wrong though.

The reason their defense is shabby is because TMV is out, which Wenger couldn't have foreseen. Squillaci and Koscielny are more technical CB's that should be paired with an imposing physical presence like TMV. That's what Wenger intended, but then he got hurt. Also, don't forget that it's their first year in the club. It takes a while for CB's to gel and form an effective partnership. This is why they can't just go and buy another one in January. It'll take the newcomer months before he is comfortable in the Arsenal system, and he won't be playing much, either if the other 3 CB's are healthy. I think the same goes for any DM, he'll just sit on the bench and never gel enough with the other players to the point where he can have the timing to play Arsenal's passing game. Who exactly do you think Wenger should/could buy this January? And at what price? I can't think of anyone good enough that they could get for cheap, and especially not any young players who would be worth the investment.
 
they have to buy a world class player,now or never.because this is will influence the future of arsenal.if arsenal win 1 or 2 cup with the new player,it will be good for morale(and business too)second reason,it will increase the sale of the shirt(for example,Kaka in arsenal shirt,much people will buy the shirt,right?)third reason,if they doesn't win some competition,emirates owner will think,why i put my company name in unwinning team?he can draw out from arsenal.Arsenal have a much of money,but wenger is too reckon on youth academy.and remember arsenal is big team,so they can get world class player so easily.
 
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Now as far as their budget goes, true, Guardiola made some expensive mistakes. Chygrnsky was a horrible decision. They wasted a whole lot of money on the Ibra debacle. And Mascherano was not worth the money when you have Busquets emerging as a world class DM.

I just pointed out Barca spent more than United .They have excellent acadmey, no one can deny that. But still they have spent so much money that puts them ahead of ManUtd in the overall spending for this decade.


True, Arsenal aim for quality football, youth development, and financial prudency...but how many of their players came from their academy? I really admire Arsenal, but for me, Barca is the best club in the world right now.

Arsenal buy young talents as other clubs buy top talents. Thats the difference. Even we have not seen single Golden generation from Arsenal youth academy.


Americans and Asians worship ManU and buy a lot of their gear), and this certainly contributed to their success.

Thanks for that. Being from Asia i take that as compliment. I have said so many times that people from other part of the world are one of the reason why ManUtd is so successful.

But do you think this would have happened had Ferguson left or retired long ago? I think he's really the only reason they've been so consistent for so long...had he left, I bet they would have struggled (big shoes for the new guy to fill), would have gone through a few managers quickly, and spent a big of money on players that didn't fit in well.

Yes. Same for Wenger. Had he retired in the early part of the decade, Arsenal would have struggled.


ManU deserves a lot of respect too....but personally I think it has more to do with Fergie than the club.

Even before SAF, Club was always global brand, and Yes once the SAF took over, it reached new heights.


To be honest I have never seen Anderson have a better than average game, I don't know what the big deal about him is.

He was excellent in his first season, Then he had injury, discipline problems. This season he came back from injury and looked completely different player. He was excellent against Blackburn, Valencia, Very good against Arsenal. We always knew he was quality. It was matter of when rather than can he.


I don't think either of the Da Silva twins will turn out. They don't play good enough defense to be a defender in a league like the Premiership,

I dont know whether you have watched enough United matches, but trust me none of the Mancs agree with you on this, if you say Rafael wont make it. Infact he has already made it. The boy is pure class and one of the best fullback in the league and for his age, best fullback in the europe. Fabio is extremely unlucky in a way that he has Evra in that spot. And he was excellent against Rangers. Twins are class and we have our fullbacks situation sorted.

Evans has had some pretty terrible games, hasn't he?

This season. In his first 2 season, we never missed Rio. That should tell how he performed in those 2 seasons.

Smalling I haven't seen enough of. You definitely know more than I do since I don't really watch that much Premiership.

This season he has not put a foot wrong and in all the games he played, he was nominated for MOTM award in many united forums. That shows the lad is coming very well.

But I think in terms of how many young players Arsenal has churned through its ranks over the past few decades, they're the best for youth development in the Prem.

I dont want to start debate on this. Arsenal academy have very good players now, but when it comes to producing talents from long back, we have done very well.

And i think we are going off topic, we can continue this in VM.
 
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