The Liverpool Thread
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The way Carroll is being managed suggests to me that there's an underlying issue with his fitness at the moment. Going on nothing but how he's being used and the pattern to it in terms of starts and then being sat on the bench. May not be, but it's a tad bizarre. Right now, it may be the only option. But looking towards next season, if the budget's tight, what gives? Less cover elsewhere in the pitch to fund another striker as insurance? Or cash in while Carroll's still got enough value to help fund a move for another striker?
They'd be more likely to end up with Suarez in the box than cover for him. And as you hint, it's a short term solution at best and relies upon either one of them being fit and capable of it physically.
That's where I'd have him, all things being equal. Just wonder whether he's physically capable of linking midfield with attack through the centre any more. We've actually been putting Henderson there rather than Gerrard. Which kind of sort of makes sense in terms of Gerrard being theoretically able to hit Downing on the left. But there's a lot of bad trade-offs going on there and you've got to wonder why they're being made. Kenny's not daft and he's said before that he prefers Gerrard nearer their goals than ours, so what's Gerrard doing launching 40 yard balls from just outside our area?
Recently Carroll has looked better when he has played, but still doesnt look trusted my view, which didnt make too much sense to me, but a fitness issue would be more plausible.
Covering Suarez is a tough one, considering I think he is more dangerous from out wide. Definitely a case of square pegs in round holes till the summer arrives.
I think he can physically do it, in a gliding Riquelme type way, that requires graft around him, but I dont think he has in him for an all round display. He certainly shouldnt be playing deeper.
But im not sure what Dalglish wants for his overall shape of Liverpool.
Yeah, you're right Mike. There is definitely an element of whether Kenny really rates him or not. But that opens big cans of worms, because if that's true someone is going to be eating £35m worth of humble pie and probably deserve a good slapping at the same time; and that's not Kenny. Loads of rumours about that Matias Suarez lad being a target for the summer (just off the forums and the papers) and you can kind of see the attraction of that busy type of player to go down the middle rather than a huge battering ram. Should really look at some pics of Carroll tbh - is it me or is his body shape changing?
Riquelme was a boss player, but that's not really Gerrard's game. That's part of the problem though, isn't it? Can Gerrard adjust to playing within what he thinks he's capable of doing? And even if he does, can the rest of the team be structured to allow him to do that? We could head down your lots way of doing it and look for the long diagonals, but right now we don't have the wingers to do that. Nor do I think it's how Kenny wants us playing as anything but a stopgap - which is why things look kind of disjointed right now. Think how Kenny solves that one will be the key decision. What's clear to me is that Gerrard's injury was as bad as it was feared and he needs to have a good think this summer about how he's going to get the most out of the rest of his career. Knocking England on the head should just be the start of it.
To me, it looked like we were heading for a 4-3-3 type affair but haven't the squad depth to carry it off. Could also question whether we've really got the players for it, but that's another story. Falling between stools at the moment, and as the injuries add up, as teams figure us out, we're getting exposed.
Guess we'll see whether we've become Geordie South over the next year. That's the real concern if Kenny can't come up with some pretty quick fixes.
Matias would be a lovely addition. But Carroll can be a serious threat if applied correctly. Having said that, something about him isnt right. Capello criticised his drinking, which Kenny thought was unfair, but his shape wasnt great, and im not sure it totally is now.
Gerrard is an issue, and a big one. I'm trying to find a way to fit him in, but it requires some serious adapting on his part. Does he have it? If not Liverpool might have to start thinking about the unthinkable when it comes to Gerrard. England is over for him after 2012 i feel. I think he is desperate for one last shot and then will call time, along with 4-5 other big names. Problem is fitting Gerrard might involve buying other players for the sake of it. Which makes no sense to me.
Hmm not sure about the 4-3-3, certainly not got the squad for. Requires yet more rebuilding. Whatever has gone on with who chose targets, there is a dischord between the players bought, and a playing style/approach.
Which is why I personally find it hard to accept there has been any real progress at Liverpool. Everything that happens this summer needs to be spot on.
I think there has been progress, but we've stalled hard and some weaknesses are getting hammered brutally home. We've gone from 'hoping not to lose 6-0' to rarely getting bossed and cursing our 'luck' in front of goal. (Can point to some games where that hasn't been true, but it's been a minority of performances rather than the vast majority). Think Kenny's point about looking away from the football also holds true there. There's been major, major churn in the squad over the past year. The how's and why's are interesting, but we're dealing with what we've got right now.
It's nuts that we're talking of one of the finest midfielders of his generation as if he were some one trick pony but it's kind of inescapable isn't it? Think that's one area where Kenny has put his foot down more than it may have been possible for another manager who would have been totally reliant on Carra and Gerrard's support rather than judging them objectively. Carra's gone from playing merry **** at the mere though of sitting on the bench to a much more rational and dignified step down to a squad player (cynic would say that new contract helped ease the pain of the splinters but no point picking at old scabs - he's been a fantastic servant to the club).
Definitely would be daft to bring in players just to accomodate Gerrard. I'm not sure there is a right answer at the moment - just a series of 'least worst ones'. If it boils down to it, the option I think might be best is to play him as an impact substitute or to ensure that there's a young hungry player coming up who can do half a season filling in for him.
There was an interesting post somewhere else from a lad who's always worth taking onboard. He reckoned that we were moving away from a high intensity pressing game to a more direct one. Not quite as direct as yourself or spurs, but certainly more 'traditionally' English. He reckoned that eventually it would lead to more league goals but the downside may be that we'll 'struggle' for European silverware playing that way. It made sense on a lot of levels.
The reason I was thinking a 4-3-3 is more the players bought. If you think something along the lines of:
Downing - Carroll - Suarez
Adam - Lucas - Gerrard (Henderson as the young player to replace him when needed)
Enrique - Agger - Skrtel - Johnson
Reina
Kind of makes sense to me if Downing is wide and Suarez is meant to move inside. It's very Chelsea-esque in honesty. Not totally, but there's hints of it. Course I don't think we've had any of those players all fit at the same time for any period of the season! Just a suspicion really. And then you can look at it another way and see a 4-2-3-1, if that makes sense? Joys of static notation
Definitely agree with you that this summer will decide what happens with us for the next few seasons. There's still a **** of a lot of work to be done on shifting out the unwanted ones from Hodgson which limits us even further. Will be interesting to see how active we are this summer - again, just a suspicion, but I've a feeling that our transfer budget for 2 financial years was spent last summer. May be that this summer we'll have to move later on than would be ideal (new financial year) short of a fairly substantial amount being raised in sales. And would think that'd boil down to whether there's money to get another option up front to allow Carroll more time to bed down or whether there's a decision to be made on whether a gamble on him doing it next season would pay off or not.
Poor Geordie lump. As you say, if we played to his strengths he'd have a bit more fun. Not sure it suits any other player in the team to do that. Enrique's crossing is abysmal. Johnson's is alright but he's much more dangerous cutting inside himself, and Gerrard doesn't look fit enough to drift out wide right often enough - Downing you'd think would be the answer, but we've been disabused of that idea enough this season; crosses are going in, but Carroll's rarely on the end of them. So no early balls into the box for him to attack...
Should be interesting to see what happens next I guess.
I think there has been progress, but we've stalled hard and some weaknesses are getting hammered brutally home. We've gone from 'hoping not to lose 6-0' to rarely getting bossed and cursing our 'luck' in front of goal. (Can point to some games where that hasn't been true, but it's been a minority of performances rather than the vast majority). Think Kenny's point about looking away from the football also holds true there. There's been major, major churn in the squad over the past year. The how's and why's are interesting, but we're dealing with what we've got right now.
It's nuts that we're talking of one of the finest midfielders of his generation as if he were some one trick pony but it's kind of inescapable isn't it? Think that's one area where Kenny has put his foot down more than it may have been possible for another manager who would have been totally reliant on Carra and Gerrard's support rather than judging them objectively. Carra's gone from playing merry **** at the mere though of sitting on the bench to a much more rational and dignified step down to a squad player (cynic would say that new contract helped ease the pain of the splinters but no point picking at old scabs - he's been a fantastic servant to the club).
Definitely would be daft to bring in players just to accomodate Gerrard. I'm not sure there is a right answer at the moment - just a series of 'least worst ones'. If it boils down to it, the option I think might be best is to play him as an impact substitute or to ensure that there's a young hungry player coming up who can do half a season filling in for him.
There was an interesting post somewhere else from a lad who's always worth taking onboard. He reckoned that we were moving away from a high intensity pressing game to a more direct one. Not quite as direct as yourself or spurs, but certainly more 'traditionally' English. He reckoned that eventually it would lead to more league goals but the downside may be that we'll 'struggle' for European silverware playing that way. It made sense on a lot of levels.
The reason I was thinking a 4-3-3 is more the players bought. If you think something along the lines of:
Downing - Carroll - Suarez
Adam - Lucas - Gerrard (Henderson as the young player to replace him when needed)
Enrique - Agger - Skrtel - Johnson
Reina
Kind of makes sense to me if Downing is wide and Suarez is meant to move inside. It's very Chelsea-esque in honesty. Not totally, but there's hints of it. Course I don't think we've had any of those players all fit at the same time for any period of the season! Just a suspicion really. And then you can look at it another way and see a 4-2-3-1, if that makes sense? Joys of static notation
Definitely agree with you that this summer will decide what happens with us for the next few seasons. There's still a **** of a lot of work to be done on shifting out the unwanted ones from Hodgson which limits us even further. Will be interesting to see how active we are this summer - again, just a suspicion, but I've a feeling that our transfer budget for 2 financial years was spent last summer. May be that this summer we'll have to move later on than would be ideal (new financial year) short of a fairly substantial amount being raised in sales. And would think that'd boil down to whether there's money to get another option up front to allow Carroll more time to bed down or whether there's a decision to be made on whether a gamble on him doing it next season would pay off or not.
Poor Geordie lump. As you say, if we played to his strengths he'd have a bit more fun. Not sure it suits any other player in the team to do that. Enrique's crossing is abysmal. Johnson's is alright but he's much more dangerous cutting inside himself, and Gerrard doesn't look fit enough to drift out wide right often enough - Downing you'd think would be the answer, but we've been disabused of that idea enough this season; crosses are going in, but Carroll's rarely on the end of them. So no early balls into the box for him to attack...
Should be interesting to see what happens next I guess.
I can see the comparisions to Chelsea, quiet direct. Powerful Forward, tricky wide player, more robust wide player, willing runners from deep etc.
Starting to really feel for Carroll now, he's not had anywhere near the quality of supply he got from Newcastle.
Personally i prefer a 4-2-3-1, but ideally you want a squad than can shift between the two.
And with Gerrard, its hard to escape the fact that he is limited in what kind of role he can play, that's not to knock that fact that he has been a truly world class player.
Before players are brought, the issue at the top of the club need to be resolved, whether that means Dalglish or Comolli going. Things are going to be tough enough without that.
Worrying if you are right about the 2 year budget, will make dealings even more difficult
Newcastle - Liverpool is going to be a cracker. Given how shrewdly Newcastle have spent, it could be an unwanted and pointed reminder about Liverpools transfer dealings if they end up winning, and indeed finishing higher.
The continental comparison is a fair one, certainly cost us in europe, alongside sub par performances.
4-2-3-1 (and variations - there's overlap isn't there?) is the system adopted through the rest of the club. So you'd think that there's room to do that. However, playing that way means either Adam or Gerrard sitting out - saw that the past few games where it was Henderson behind Suarez and Spearing partnering Gerrard.
Trying to remember the other lad being spoken of - Boudebouz or something from the French leagues. Not seen anything of him but I know for a fact that we've spoken to his club. Stories of Llorente being a target last season but us not being willing to wait til the summer to get him which is why there's a bit of niggle around the Carroll signing all things considered from some sides. Then again I know for a fact that we were in prime position to sign Mata too, sooooo strange world or something. Will tell you the story about a young lad who agreed a move to one club and at the last moment changed his mind and mysteriously leaked his buyout clause to another one day.
Newcastle have done well. They took a big gamble with a lad whose knees are one turn away from ending his career and it's paid off big time. Their other gamble, Marveaux, is best mates with the club doctor. Swings and roundabouts when making those kind of punts.
See what happens in the summer for me now. Everyone's talking, no-one's really saying much. If we can scrape through the rest of the season and make up some ground on the Geordies, it's been a disappointing one for us in the league but the cups provide a large fat girl to the other side of the seesaw (metaphor courtesy of In Bruges). Fanbase needs a wake-up call (post-2005 influx aren't healthy - but at the same time these are the ones the club are hoping to milk for money for the future so have to be kept onboard) but they're so kneejerky there's not the patienec to go through (yet another) five year plan. We are turning into a mid-table team if we don't get it sorted out now because blunt facts are that there's no sugar daddy able to come in and pour billions into the club.
Trying to remember the other lad being spoken of - Boudebouz or something from the French leagues. Not seen anything of him but I know for a fact that we've spoken to his club. Stories of Llorente being a target last season but us not being willing to wait til the summer to get him which is why there's a bit of niggle around the Carroll signing all things considered from some sides. Then again I know for a fact that we were in prime position to sign Mata too, sooooo strange world or something. Will tell you the story about a young lad who agreed a move to one club and at the last moment changed his mind and mysteriously leaked his buyout clause to another one day.
Newcastle have done well. They took a big gamble with a lad whose knees are one turn away from ending his career and it's paid off big time. Their other gamble, Marveaux, is best mates with the club doctor. Swings and roundabouts when making those kind of punts.
See what happens in the summer for me now. Everyone's talking, no-one's really saying much. If we can scrape through the rest of the season and make up some ground on the Geordies, it's been a disappointing one for us in the league but the cups provide a large fat girl to the other side of the seesaw (metaphor courtesy of In Bruges). Fanbase needs a wake-up call (post-2005 influx aren't healthy - but at the same time these are the ones the club are hoping to milk for money for the future so have to be kept onboard) but they're so kneejerky there's not the patienec to go through (yet another) five year plan. We are turning into a mid-table team if we don't get it sorted out now because blunt facts are that there's no sugar daddy able to come in and pour billions into the club.
Don't think your giving Newcastle enough credit there really. Sure, it was a bit of a ''punt'' on Demba Ba - but other shrewd signings like Yoann Cabaye [5m] and Cheick Tiote [2m] is a midfield duo that cost less than Jordan Henderson alone. Other signings like Santon [5m] and Papiss Demba Cissé [10m]. All the mentioned players would probably get into the Liverpool team (bar Santon), and they were all transfer masterstrokes. So to say it was a lucky ''punt'' and to mention other ''punts'' is pretty off imo.
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My point was that Ba was the critical signing. 16 goals in 26 league games confirms that opinion. Without his goals, Newcastle would be in the midtable pack with Stoke.
Tiote was signed in 2010 (£3.5m I believe?) - cracking player, great price. Santon's barely made an impression on the Newcastle first team, let alone anyone else. Cisse is hardly a punt at £10m and looks like a good player in the very, very short time he's been at Newcastle.
Hardly 'pretty off' for not name checking Cabaye (who cost round about the same as Lucas - the Brazillian captain) and highlighting that the reason Newcastle are in sixth is that they took a chance on a quality player who everyone else refused to touch because of concerns about his knees.
Not sure that any of those fall into the same category as Ba (or even Marveaux). Prices for the vast majority of foreign players are substantially less than a player who can fulfill a homegrown place in the squad. We got a young international who's won international silverware for half the price of the minimum buyout of an English equivalent. It's just how the market works for English clubs on that score - comparisons across will always mean that the English player is exceptionally expensive. Charlie Adam is a decent comparison to Cabaye (bit more expensive but same kind of price range) - Adam's scored the same amount as Cabaye and made four times the number of assists, and also has a similar workrate. Let's have some balance on this one
And I'll not defend the Carroll fee. Henderson's is ballpark for a young English player who looks likely to go on to be a regular international. When it pays off, take the credit. When it doesn't, as with Marveaux, those are the breaks. And, yeah, I'd certainly bite Pardew's hand off for Tiote right now. A goalscoring centre forward from anywhere would be lovely
Ba has been a fantastic signing, but it was definitely a punt on a player who could at any moment have to end his career. He is definitely superb though isn't he? If it weren't for his knees, you wonder whether he'd have been playing European football this season.
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Ride The Walrus
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Tiote's a good player, but if I had to choose between a fit Lucas and Tiote, it's Lucas all day and night. Cabaye's quality, I'd love him here, think he'd do really well here. One of the reasons I hope Newcastle capitulate this season, and we can get him.
Oh, rumours about Yann M'Villa, but I'm not too sure on him. Do we really need him? Just an expensive Tiote, really. It's obvious we need midfield reinforcements right now, but with Lucas coming to fitness, and someone like Cabaye (<3) being brought in, we'd be set in the middle. To be honest, any outcome that doesn't depend on Charlie ******* Adam.
Oh, rumours about Yann M'Villa, but I'm not too sure on him. Do we really need him? Just an expensive Tiote, really. It's obvious we need midfield reinforcements right now, but with Lucas coming to fitness, and someone like Cabaye (<3) being brought in, we'd be set in the middle. To be honest, any outcome that doesn't depend on Charlie ******* Adam.
Good luck getting Cabaye. If anything they are the stronger of the two sides. And yes you do need a player like M'vila. You have zero cover for Lucas, Spearing isnt anywhere near ready. Not does he have any interest in leaving Newcastle.
Ride The Walrus
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Honestly I think if Lucas returns like he was prior-injury, we don't need a back up. He hardly ever gets injured, Spearing is very adequate back up, and he's only on small wages. We'd need to concentrate more on a more creative midfielder.
Your team loses balance without him. Gambling on him not having injuries is a dangerous thing, especially when competing on multiple fronts. You need more than one player to be honest.
Jack Fulham
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Sounds like you need Aqualiani.
also, am pretty sure Lucas isn't captain of Brazil zebedee.
LFCMarshall
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I think we need 2 players an thats it, A quality world class CM to go alonside Gerrard and Lucas... Perfect choice Javi Martinez, not gunna happen tho... and a striker who can actually finish!
PS: Aquilani may be that CM player, but its also not going to happen now.. he came when the club was i trouble of the pitch and its affected his look on the club
PS: Aquilani may be that CM player, but its also not going to happen now.. he came when the club was i trouble of the pitch and its affected his look on the club
Jack Fulham
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Isn't Javi Martinez a bit too similar to Lucas?
You could say that, yeah. But obviously Lucas is better. (A)
Ride The Walrus
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Not this Aquilani ***** again...
Jack Fulham
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