The Manchester United Thread

[Mike.]

Pardon me for butting in, but there's a lot of talk about width. I don't see width as much of an issue. Januzaj starts central, for instance and drifts wide. That opens space for Mata/Dapay/central midfielders to exploit. At the same time, Shaw overlaps at times and Darmian/Valencia do often. There's decent movement there in the build-up, imo.

The issue for me is that there's little penetration. Few forward bursts being made. At times Rooney comes deep and nobody runs beyond him. Herrera could be used here. Or one of the wide players. Vertical movement is lacking, not so much width. Thoughts?

Definitely an issue. Hence the call for Herrera.

 

[Tyton]

You don't need to run with the ball to create width. You just need to run.

Example:

1. De Gea has the ball and waits to restart play.
2. Mata moves inside
3. His marker follows
4. There's now space on the right.
5. Darmian runs in that space.
6. Defense needs to strech to adjust
7. You now have width and the ball isn't even in play.
8. PROFIT.

This is easiest that I can explain this without using MS Paint.

 

[zzeezzy]

zzezzy you need to get away from this thinking that only the most advanced players can provide with. It's all creating space and exploiting it.

I know what you mean but you've also got to have fullbacks who can not only do that (Darmian/Shaw do) but also have a good end product, that is where the problem lies at the moment. Then again you're going to be hard pressed to find a fullback as good as Darmian defending wise who is better at crossing or producing that end product. Pretty much need the perfect fullback for that and they are very few and far between. So what's the solution? Hope they get better in that department I suppose.

 

[MANUMAD]

You're wrong again on Gotze, he plays both flanks too. I used to do analysis on Gotze ffS, i'd near enough watched every game he played in 13-14. for a start he can dribble his man, though he particularly enjoys beating his man with a pass around the corner before sliding a pass across the 6 yard box with with right foot. ( YES THATS WHY HE DOESNT CUT IN ALL THE TIME FROM THE RIGHT, HE IS RIGHT FOOTED). Gotze goes left or right past his man when on the right and side, or right past his man when on the left hand side.

Again width doesnt have to come from dribbling, it comes from your positioning. Pedro is the perfect example of this. Width does not mean crossing from the byline. Ribery and Robben both keep width for Bayern, both of them are inside forwards with their strong feet on the inside.

Incorrect against newcastle, we actually beat the deep block numerous times, what we didnt have is anyone to nod the ball into the next, or Herrera to exploit Mata's movement, and we had 3 gilt edge finishes behind the deep block we missed (Depay, Mata, Hernandez)

Di Maria doesn't go past his man on the outside, unless he is going for the rabona

I think what Zzeezzy is trying to allude to (mentioning "the Valencia of old" is a giveaway) is the old school "outside left/right" type of player exemplified in modern football by our Giggsy. I also prefer the "olden" Utd with two pure wingers on either side but dont lets forget that SAF himself rarely used them in the last 6/7 years of his tenure and introduced much more intricate tactical permutations.

I think the lack of real width (or maybe consistent width) under LVG (despite the fact that he doesnt mind crosses) comes from his regimented stylings: you dont see us doing the overlap too often under him and in fact Rafa who was superb at that has been sacrificed probably exactly for the sake of such regimented stylings.

 

[Mike.]

You don't need to run with the ball to create width. You just need to run.

Example:

1. De Gea has the ball and waits to restart play.
2. Mata moves inside
3. His marker follows
4. There's now space on the right.
5. Darmian runs in that space.
6. Defense needs to strech to adjust
7. You now have width and the ball isn't even in play.
8. PROFIT.

This is easiest that I can explain this without using MS Paint.

The answer is Ander Herrera.

 

[MANUMAD]

don't get me started on this.

for all the talk of new players, the single biggest improvement we would have is playing Mata and Herrera all the time where possible.

I really dont know wtf more than his usual very effective self Herrera can do to get himself picked. Its sooo annoying. We should have multiple avenues for creating and employing space and instead we are rather one track in his absence

 

[Mike.]

I know what you mean but you've also got to have fullbacks who can not only do that (Darmian/Shaw do) but also have a good end product, that is where the problem lies at the moment. Then again you're going to be hard pressed to find a fullback as good as Darmian defending wise who is better at crossing or producing that end product. Pretty much need the perfect fullback for that and they are very few and far between. So what's the solution? Hope they get better in that department I suppose.

That's exactly that. You can not solve everything though buying someone. The players and selection have to first

 

[WJ]

The answer is Ander Herrera.

I haven't read through the earlier pages, but I'm assuming you'd want him at 10 in front of 2 holding mids?

 

[Mike.]

I haven't read through the earlier pages, but I'm assuming you'd want him at 10 in front of 2 holding mids?

I'd want him in the hold two tbh.
Ideally we'd play 4-3-3.

 

[MANUMAD]

Pardon me for butting in, but there's a lot of talk about width. I don't see width as much of an issue. Januzaj starts central, for instance and drifts wide. That opens space for Mata/Depay/central midfielders to exploit. At the same time, Shaw overlaps at times and Darmian/Valencia do often. There's decent movement there in the build-up, imo.

The issue for me is that there's little penetration. Few forward bursts being made. At times Rooney comes deep and nobody runs beyond him. Herrera could be used here. Or one of the wide players. Vertical movement is lacking, not so much width. Thoughts?

Ive read somewhere that Rooneys average position in the three matches played so far is behind Januzaj and Depay!

 

[MANUMAD]

I know what you mean but you've also got to have fullbacks who can not only do that (Darmian/Shaw do) but also have a good end product, that is where the problem lies at the moment. Then again you're going to be hard pressed to find a fullback as good as Darmian defending wise who is better at crossing or producing that end product. Pretty much need the perfect fullback for that and they are very few and far between. So what's the solution? Hope they get better in that department I suppose.

If the crosses (width) and through balls (penetration) are not happening or are not effective then you wont have good end product whatever you do. Rooney or whoever is your cf will keep coming deep to get more of the ball etc.

Actually, typing this it just struck me: would it be possible that all this time that Rooney played at cm and at various positions other than at cf have caused him to "learn" the ppm of "coming deep to get the ball" to use FM lingo?

 

[WJ]

I'd want him in the hold two tbh.

Preferably, yes, but I don't see that happening with the 3 other competitors in the way.

Ideally we'd play 4-3-3.

This is probably the best option. Definitely agree with it. Rooney seems out of it when trying to stay up top. He seems to prefer coming deep which a 4-3-3 would allow him to.

 

[wkdsoul]

Mata can drift all he likes, Schneiderlein, Bastian, Carrick arent coming to cause anyone any problems.

In very basic terms you have no one for the opposition Anchor/Defensive Midfield to have to cope with/watch in center mid. its all in front of him, not puttng him on the turn..

Herrera is your driving option here.


MANUMAD - Roobey has always been that type of striker even before he played anywhere else. He always came deeper than most.

 

[MANUMAD]

MANUMAD - Roobey has always been that type of striker even before he played anywhere else. He always came deeper than most.

Yeah I know that - but he seems to overdo it nowadays and I was wondering how much of that is due to lack of proper service and how much due to, erm, a ppm.

 

[wkdsoul]

Yeah I know that - but he seems to overdo it nowadays and I was wondering how much of that is due to lack of proper service and how much due to, erm, a ppm.

Prob more to the fact up front on his own he is outnumbered by at least 2/1 more so if the oppo play an anchor man, and is seeing none of the ball. Rooney always wants on the ball its his main trait, the system/style is doing him no favours at the min.

 

[Tyton]

Mata can drift all he likes, Schneiderlein, Bastian, Carrick arent coming to cause anyone any problems.

Carrick and Schneiderlin, sure. Bastian? You seem to be forgetting he played most career as a winger. He has a mean longhost, and he is perfectly capable of doing lamperdesque runs into the box. In fact, he made a few in almost every game so far. He's obviously not going to score 30, but he will definitely add a few if he's a consistent starter.

 

[wkdsoul]

Carrick and Schneiderlin, sure. Bastian? You seem to be forgetting he played most career as a winger. He has a mean longhost, and he is perfectly capable of doing lamperdesque runs into the box. In fact, he made a few in almost every game so far. He's obviously not going to score 30, but he will definitely add a few if he's a consistent starter.

Not in the rate you will need to trouble teams at the top. Bastian has clearly been brought on during the 'slow it down, keep retention see this out' scenarios in so far, even in the Brugge game and he was on with 45 left.

A midfield with Herrera doing the power running from deep is far more to cope with for the oppostition, than any combination of the other 3 in the pairing.

Bastian would be the one if you bought him 3+ years ago, but he wont start enough to be the guy you need. I wasnt knocking Bastian just discounting him over Herrera due to game time, age and injury.

Herrera would be the answer for me to the debate about over the rest of them.

 

[Tyton]

I think what Zzeezzy is trying to allude to (mentioning "the Valencia of old" is a giveaway) is the old school "outside left/right" type of player exemplified in modern football by our Giggsy. I also prefer the "olden" Utd with two pure wingers on either side but dont lets forget that SAF himself rarely used them in the last 6/7 years of his tenure and introduced much more intricate tactical permutations.

Lets be honest here, classic winger died the same day when classic 4-4-2 died. There's no point constantly hoofing it towards one striker, when has no partner nearby and needs to beat two centerbacks.

 

[wkdsoul]

If Navas could cross he'd be a great winger... sigh.

I like the one where he runs to the line and gets a corner...

 

[damola3]

That's why you have runners who exploit the space they left, its exactly what every one else does, except us for some reason.

And no you want to depay to get better as a goal scorer and exploiting that inside space., not spend time staying wide. It's up to shaw to improve his ability at crossing.

In 2015 we had the most points in Europe for last season on a second half of the season run. Alexis cut inside from the left and Ramsey played on the right, but ended up quite central. You had the lightning quick Hector Bellerin making the width on the right hand side, while Monreal was more reserved. Often, when Alexis would cut in, Özil would move wide left and sometime play around the outside. I get that Darmian is a defensive minded player, however he still needs to make the width. Nacho Monreal had to adapt his defensive game to offer more in attack.