The Manchester United Thread

[zzeezzy]

You're wrong again on Gotze, he plays both flanks too. I used to do analysis on Gotze ffS, i'd near enough watched every game he played in 13-14. for a start he can dribble his man, though he particularly enjoys beating his man with a pass around the corner before sliding a pass across the 6 yard box with with right foot. ( YES THATS WHY HE DOESNT CUT IN ALL THE TIME FROM THE RIGHT, HE IS RIGHT FOOTED). Gotze goes left or right past his man when on the right and side, or right past his man when on the left hand side.

Again width doesnt have to come from dribbling, it comes from your positioning. Pedro is the perfect example of this. Width does not mean crossing from the byline. Ribery and Robben both keep width for Bayern, both of them are inside forwards with their strong feet on the inside.

Incorrect against newcastle, we actually beat the deep block numerous times, what we didnt have is anyone to nod the ball into the next, or Herrera to exploit Mata's movement, and we had 3 gilt edge finishes behind the deep block we missed (Depay, Mata, Hernandez)

Di Maria doesn't go past his man on the outside, unless he is going for the rabona

Ok fine I'll bow to your superior knowledge on Gotze and perhaps you're right, but I'd still argue we have plenty of no.10's already who he would hinder by coming in without already trying the players we have now. Pereira can play out-wide, why not try him? There is alternative solutions right now that can be made to address this issue, such as trying Depay on the right or putting Januzaj out there instead to offer more width rather than Mata. You could actually have Young on the left and Depay on the right, you'd imagine because he's right footed he'll favour going outside his man more often rather than constantly cutting inside.

I know btw someone asked me what I define as a proper winger so I was just telling them. Although that isn't correct about Di Maria he often favours beating his man down the line when played on the left wing. Plenty of times he done it in Copa America. If we're honest we didn't see the best of Di Maria enough to really analyse and he was moved all over the place position wise under Van Gaal, never really got the best out of him.

 

[sunilvk7]

You just answered your own post I think, Darmian offers the width sure but his crossing has been bad so it doesn't solve the whole issue. Just like if we had a winger there who couldn't cross a ball, not much use. Darmian made plenty of good runs on the outside and offered the width sure. But his end product was nowhere to be seen, he had great opportunities to find someone in the box on numerous occasions.

Not sure bro you understood what I meant. It's not the lack of width that's the problem, it's the lack of players attacking the ball in the box. Out attackers are way too passive except Depay. Hernandez is the perfect example of active attacker.

 

[Mike.]

Ok fine I'll bow to your superior knowledge on Gotze and perhaps you're right, but I'd still argue we have plenty of no.10's already who he would hinder by coming in without already trying the players we have now. Pereira can play out-wide, why not try him? There is alternative solutions right now that can be made to address this issue, such as trying Depay on the right or putting Januzaj out there instead to offer more width rather than Mata. You could actually have Young on the left and Depay on the right, you'd imagine because he's right footed he'll favour going outside his man more often rather than constantly cutting inside.

I know btw someone asked me what I define as a proper winger so I was just telling them. Although that isn't correct about Di Maria he often favours beating his man down the line when played on the left wing. Plenty of times he done it in Copa America. If we're honest we didn't see the best of Di Maria enough to really analyse and he was moved all over the place position wise under Van Gaal, never really got the best out of him.

you've been complaining all summer that we don't have enough. either we do, or we don't make up your mind first, before i look at the rest of your post because with all due respect you don't seem to know what you want or are arguing for.

Di Maria actually checks back on to his left to cross. It's physically impossible to run straight down the line and cross with your reverse foot unless you rabona, you have to check back to to get the whip.

 

[zzeezzy]

you've been complaining all summer that we don't have enough. either we do, or we don't make up your mind first, before i look at the rest of your post because with all due respect you don't seem to know what you want or are arguing for.

Di Maria actually checks back on to his left to cross. It's physically impossible to run straight down the line and cross with your reverse foot unless you rabona, you have to check back to to get the whip.

I want someone who is more a winger than a no.10, even if you can't find the ideal winger these days because they are few and far between. That's why I was happy when being linked with Mane, he's not a stellar name but he definitely offers that pace and directness we lack sometimes that could be utilised with him. Not to mention the goals he brings as well.

 

[Mike.]

I want someone who is more a winger than a no.10, even if you can't find the ideal winger these days because they are few and far between. That's why I was happy when being linked with Mane, he's not a stellar name but he definitely offers that pace and directness we lack sometimes that could be utilised with him. Not to mention the goals he brings as well.

Again define winger, and define why a play who brings width in Gotze doesn't fit (when he actually does)

 

[zzeezzy]

Again define winger, and define why a play who brings width in Gotze doesn't fit (when he actually does)

Think Valencia back when he used to take on a man on the outside and drill a ball into the box. Basically everything Mata can't offer, I'm not having a go at him as he's useful and in certain games is the better option. But having that alternative option is going to be key to being successful in some games, depending on the opponent and how they setup.

 

[Mike.]

Think Valencia back when he used to take on a man on the outside and drill a ball into the box. Basically everything Mata can't offer, I'm not having a go at him as he's useful and in certain games is the better option. But having that alternative option is going to be key to being successful in some games, depending on the opponent and how they setup.

Valencia has a lethal cross at his peak, and nothing else. Quick, powerful, direct and utterly one dimensional. That's the only thing he could do better than Mata. and once you stopped him going round the outside he had nothing. Mata is er, lot more than simply useful.

No other top side uses a player like Valencia, except City with Navas and he is pants half the time. Yet they all keep width....

 

[zzeezzy]

Valencia has a lethal cross at his peak, and nothing else. Quick, powerful, direct and utterly one dimensional. That's the only thing he could do better than Mata. and once you stopped him going round the outside he had nothing. Mata is er, lot more than simply useful.

No other top side uses a player like Valencia, except City with Navas and he is pants half the time. Yet they all keep width....

All the top teams usually have players with pace out-wide a lot of the time that can beat players and go outside or inside. Mata can't beat a man, Valencia of old could and probably even now if he tried more.

 

[Mike.]

All the top teams have players with pace out-wide a lot of the time that can beat players and go outside or inside. Mata can't beat a man, Valencia of old could and probably even now if he tried more.

so why are you against a player like Gotze or KDB who do exactly that? You don't need to be eletric to beat your man, just good acceleration and quick feet. They have both, can beat a man either side, great to link up inside and outside.

Mata beats his man with movement. It's not his fault we fail to use Herrera to exploit that space. That's a selection flaw, not a player one.

 

[zzeezzy]

so why are you against a player like Gotze or KDB who do exactly that? You don't need to be eletric to beat your man, just good acceleration and quick feet. They have both, can beat a man either side, great to link up inside and outside.

Mata beats his man with movement. It's not his fault we fail to use Herrera to exploit that space. That's a selection flaw, not a player one.

Because I'm convinced they are more favoured to central positions rather than out-wide, if you think they are effective out-wide and will offer something different what we currently have then fine that is your opinion. But from what I've seen and know I don't think so. Not a lot of De Bruyne but seen Gotze fair bit. Pedro would of been a better choice, but LVG for some unknown reason didn't want him.

 

[Mike.]

Because I'm convinced they are more favoured to central positions rather than out-wide, if you think they are effective out-wide and will offer something different what we currently have then fine that is your opinion. But from what I've seen and know I don't think so. Not a lot of De Bruyne but seen Gotze fair bit.

Can they offer width? yes

can they offer clever link up? yes

are they a threat both sides of the ball? yes

would it all Mata to play behind the forward? yes

Would they make us better if mata stayed outwide and they played behind the forward? yes


A player like that you buy, because either way they are used, you're a better side than before.

You want us to rekindle interested in Anderson right? There is every chance that he would play behind the forward and not out wide.

 

[wkdsoul]

so why are you against a player like Gotze or KDB who do exactly that? You don't need to be eletric to beat your man, just good acceleration and quick feet. They have both, can beat a man either side, great to link up inside and outside.

Mata beats his man with movement. It's not his fault we fail to use Herrera to exploit that space. That's a selection flaw, not a player one.

Theres a really good write up of this, and questioning why it isnt implemented more over on Manchester Evening News site.

 

[damola3]

Can they offer width? yes

can they offer clever link up? yes

are they a threat both sides of the ball? yes

would it all Mata to play behind the forward? yes

Would they make us better if mata stayed outwide and they played behind the forward? yes


A player like that you buy, because either way they are used, you're a better side than before.

You want us to rekindle interested in Anderson right? There is every chance that he would play behind the forward and not out wide.

Gotze isn't quicker like Mata. Gotze beats him man through good movement than pace as well. De Bruyne has more raw pace, however he isn't lighting quick by any means. These players won't naturally stay wide, even if they do play there.

 

[Mike.]

Theres a really good write up of this, and questioning why it isnt implemented more over on Manchester Evening News site.

don't get me started on this.

for all the talk of new players, the single biggest improvement we would have is playing Mata and Herrera all the time where possible.

 

[zzeezzy]

Gotze isn't quicker like Mata. Gotze beats him man through good movement than pace as well. De Bruyne has more raw pace, however he isn't lighting quick by any means. These players won't naturally stay wide, even if they do play there.

Precisely and when you have another player on the other side who tends to drift inside as well it really does matter. Depay on the left naturally likes to cut inside on to his right foot. Then you have Mata who also likes to drift into the no.10 position.

So whilst they may technically 'play out-wide' they actually move into the more no.10 central zones a fair bit, moreso with Mata than Depay admittedly.

Depay's biggest problem is that he needs to work on going on the outside and producing a better end product more, because he's going to get found out quite quickly if he constantly comes onto his stronger foot inside. He does try and take his man on the outside from time to time and usually gets past them, but his delivery was quite weak, or so I noticed in Newcastle game.

 

[Mike.]

Precisely and when you have another player on the other side who tends to drift inside as well it really does matter. Depay on the left naturally likes to cut inside on to his right foot. Then you have Mata who also likes to drift into the no.10 position.

So whilst they may technically 'play out-wide' they actually move into the more no.10 central zones a fair bit, moreso with Mata than Depay admittedly.

Depay's biggest problem is that he needs to work on going on the outside and producing a better end product more, because he's going to get found out quite quickly if he constantly comes onto his stronger foot inside. He does try and take his man on the outside from time to time and usually gets past them, but his delivery was quite weak, or so I noticed in Newcastle game.

That's why you have runners who exploit the space they left, its exactly what every one else does, except us for some reason.

And no you want to depay to get better as a goal scorer and exploiting that inside space., not spend time staying wide. It's up to shaw to improve his ability at crossing.

 

[zzeezzy]

That's why you have runners who exploit the space they left, its exactly what every one else does, except us for some reason.

And no you want to depay to get better as a goal scorer and exploiting that inside space., not spend time staying wide. It's up to shaw to improve his ability at crossing.

Depay needs to be able to do both well if he is to become one of the best, when ever he went on the outside against Newcastle he beat the man then produced a poor ball. Then when he tried to cut inside (which he done mainly) he often got closed down very quickly and worked out. Brugge didn't do that so Newcastle knew exactly what was coming and he was largely ineffective. It will be interesting to see how he adjusts now that opponents start to work him out.

 

[Mike.]

zzezzy you need to get away from this thinking that only the most advanced players can provide with. It's all creating space and exploiting it.

 

[Mike.]

Depay needs to be able to do both well if he is to become one of the best, when ever he went on the outside against Newcastle he beat the man then produced a poor ball. Then when he tried to cut inside (which he done mainly) he often got closed down very quickly and worked out. Brugge didn't do that so Newcastle knew exactly what was coming and he was largely ineffective. It will be interesting to see how he adjusts now that opponents start to work him out.

We creating a ton of space outside him against newcastle, crossing wasn't good enough from Shaw. His runs put Shaw into free space constantly.

 

[WJ]

Pardon me for butting in, but there's a lot of talk about width. I don't see width as much of an issue. Januzaj starts central, for instance and drifts wide. That opens space for Mata/Depay/central midfielders to exploit. At the same time, Shaw overlaps at times and Darmian/Valencia do often. There's decent movement there in the build-up, imo.

The issue for me is that there's little penetration. Few forward bursts being made. At times Rooney comes deep and nobody runs beyond him. Herrera could be used here. Or one of the wide players. Vertical movement is lacking, not so much width. Thoughts?