The Manchester United Thread

[Legend Incredible]

I very much doubt he or anyone would have you challenging for the league. No.Not the way this current Utd side is built.

He's a top coach but he's no miracle worker with mediocre talent that's a mix of all sorts. He wouldn't have the levels of success at Anfield without the right recruitment and philosophy through the whole club from top to bottom.

What Utd players would fit in a Klopp team outside the young attackers?

I'm fairly confident a lot of your current players wouldn't maintain the same standards once Klopp leaves. I've seen enough in Gini at Paris to see this. Klopp would no doubt improve a lot of our current lot.

If you asked me whom would "fit in" right away, I'd easily pick Rashford, Sancho, Bruno, VdB, Varane, Luke Shaw. I'd even add Cavani since the guy is hard working for someone his age.

He's also bound to improve on some other players as well.

 

[Scouseinthehouse]

I'm fairly confident a lot of your current players wouldn't maintain the same standards once Klopp leaves. I've seen enough in Gini at Paris to see this. Klopp would no doubt improve a lot of our current lot.

If you asked me whom would "fit in" right away, I'd easily pick Rashford, Sancho, Bruno, VdB, Varane, Luke Shaw. I'd even add Cavani since the guy is hard working for someone his age.

He's also bound to improve on some other players as well.

I did say 'aside from the young attackers.' Your tubby LB is a stretch as the workload AndyRobbo goes through would kill him. He'd need to get super fit first but I'll grant you he's stylistically in our style of FB.

The key to it all is recruitment. Without the proper GM in place, who would have to have the same philosophy to even think of hiring Klopp in the first place, it wouldn't work at all. You've what there, 6 players? That's one **** of a build to get you to a challenging side. We only really started to jump forward when Edwards got the gig and implemented his brilliant, analytical recruitment system that finds the right skill set to match the manager's philosophy.

That's why I have NO doubt we'll be sound after Jurgen. It's all about the right GM who then appoints the right coach that fits in with the club's philosophy. And the top-notch system Edwards has implemented is designed to rely on the sum of its parts and not just one person. (A top manager or a top GM.). Utd have NO philosophy and even as recently as the madly lorded last summer, are still buying players on reputation with varying skill sets without any plan of what to do with them.

*Edit* And that's not to detract at all from Jurgen who's been integral and is the best coach/ teacher currently working in World football IMHO who's improved most every player he's had here to some degree. Coaching is obviously a vital facet. But it goes hand in hand with the right recruitment and everyone at the club on the same page. One fits the other. And without that, we wouldn't be having the success we are.

The Benteke's of this World only take you so far and your squad is full of average players when it comes to the very top level across a whole different range of skill sets that again hasn't been put together to any specific system.

Would he improve players at Utd? No question. But as things stand, I don't see that group as any better than challenging for 4th regardless of who coaches them. Solksjaers a MAJOR problem at Utd. But he's FAR from the biggest problem.

 

[Legend Incredible]

I did say 'aside from the young attackers.' Your tubby LB is a stretch as the workload AndyRobbo goes through would kill him. He'd need to get super fit first but I'll grant you he's stylistically in our style of FB.

The key to it all is recruitment. Without the proper GM in place, who would have to have the same philosophy to even think of hiring Klopp in the first place, it wouldn't work at all. You've what there, 6 players? That's one **** of a build to get you to a challenging side. We only really started to jump forward when Edwards got the gig and implemented his brilliant, analytical recruitment system that finds the right skill set to match the manager's philosophy.

That's why I have NO doubt we'll be sound after Jurgen. It's all about the right GM who then appoints the right coach that fits in with the club's philosophy. And the top-notch system Edwards has implemented is designed to rely on the sum of its parts and not just one person. (A top manager or a top GM.). Utd have NO philosophy and even as recently as the madly lorded last summer, are still buying players on reputation with varying skill sets without any plan of what to do with them.

*Edit* And that's not to detract at all from Jurgen who's been integral and is the best coach/ teacher currently working in World football IMHO who's improved most every player he's had here to some degree. Coaching is obviously a vital facet. But it goes hand in hand with the right recruitment and everyone at the club on the same page. One fits the other. And without that, we wouldn't be having the success we are.

The Benteke's of this World only take you so far and your squad is full of average players when it comes to the very top level across a whole different range of skill sets that again hasn't been put together to any specific system.

Would he improve players at Utd? No question. But as things stand, I don't see that group as any better than challenging for 4th regardless of who coaches them. Solksjaers a MAJOR problem at Utd. But he's FAR from the biggest problem.

Players we've purchased over the years have been bought according to the vision of whatever gaffe we've had.

With Mourinho, we focused solely on players with grit, with LVG, we focused solely on players to fit his counter press oriented system.

What you could say is the problem is the lack of consistency with regards to who's hired. We went from LVG to Mourinho to OGS. I didn't include Moyes as we didn't do enough transfer business to influence anything.

The problem ultimately stems from managerial selection. Besides, how many players from Klopp's very first Liverpool XI are part of your setup today? Only Henderson, Matip and firmino and Edwards had been your GM for a decade or so so even Klopp has to overhaul the side to get you lot to challenge for major honors.

So mate, don't act like you struck gold with recruitment before Klopp because you didn't. The fact he needed to overhaul the side he inherited says alot.

 

[Legend Incredible]

The only two clubs that run with the holistic transfer policy you speak of would be Real Madrid and Chelsea. Hence why they pull the trigger more frequently than any other club in Europe.

Other than that, every club buys according to the vision of the gaffe.

 

[Scouseinthehouse]

.... .So mate, don't act like you struck gold with recruitment before Klopp because you didn't. The fact he needed to overhaul the side he inherited says alot.

Pray tell where I said that?

Edwards has been in the role for 5-years. It all stems from there when the clubs' philosophy and whole MO changed and he completely overhauled our recruitment system.

Klopp is just the perfect marriage to that.

 

[wkdsoul]

Players we've purchased over the years have been bought according to the vision of whatever gaffe we've had...

Totally expect this to happen again if they go for Conte, jsut cant see how he lines up HIS 352/343 with that squad as it without losing a few big names,

 

[Legend Incredible]

Totally expect this to happen again if they go for Conte, jsut cant see how he lines up HIS 352/343 with that squad as it without losing a few big names,

That's what I fear. If he's implementing a 3-4-3, he's going to have to drop Bruno. If he's going with a 3-5-2, what does that mean for Sancho and the infinite number of wingers we have? He's going to bin a lot of them and buy stop gap players like Zappacosta that would only click under him.

 

[Scouseinthehouse]

Totally expect this to happen again if they go for Conte, jsut cant see how he lines up HIS 352/343 with that squad as it without losing a few big names,

Exactly. Which would be more of the same/ shortermism, and lead to the same issues for the man after him.

Until Utd get the structure right from the top on down (which is just never happening under the Glazers if their entire tenure to date is any indication), with a philosophy to build from without it changing to suit the manager, rather than getting the manager to suit a solid system and players that fit that, they will continue to meander along without ever troubling anyone for the major honours consistently.

 

[Sherkey]

Totally expect this to happen again if they go for Conte, jsut cant see how he lines up HIS 352/343 with that squad as it without losing a few big names,

Yeah, this has been my issue with a potential Conte appointment since Day 1. He sticks to his system, and many of our best players get binned. And it's Conte - sure, short term, improve us a lot, but when the fall-out happens, we would have sold brilliant players and maybe got stuck with players who don't particularly fit anywhere else.

Again, at Pool, it worked out because Klopp also accepted the DoF model and was aware that every decision would not go his way. The previous manager (Rodgers) was so threatened by someone else having an equal say in transfers that he nearly went on strike, IIRC.

Again, this can be implemented only if it comes from the board level, as Scouse keeps mentioning. And I don't see that happening anytime soon. Maybe slightly more hope now, as supposedly, Arnold is just focussing more on the financial matters (unlike Woodward), which mean there is some potential that a DoF model could happen, but it's a tall, tall hope.

Conte being appointed means the paperwork would again have to be torn as all of the managers we appointed post Fergie have dramatically differing styles. It would again lead to a bigger mess. Mind you, I'm not saying Conte wouldn't be good - heck, he would be the perfect manager to provide a proverbial boot up the **** that a lot of our current players need. But that's just delaying the problem slightly, not trying to solve it.

DoF model being aside, coaches who are more suited the mould of players we have would be a better appointment. Honestly, struggling to look past Poch - perfect. But even there, without a proper DoF and analytics, it's eventually doomed, but he would be a much better appointment, stylistically (whether we can get him is another question altogether). There are other choices - a la Potter (although I feel he could potentially get chewed out by the job, considering the turmoil at all levels) or ten Haag (not sure, he hasn't managed outside Ajax, which seems to be a team tailor-made for the system).

 

[Scouseinthehouse]

..... Other than that, every club buys according to the vision of the gaffe.

Not the way football's evolving.

Which I find even more mad as for an American owned club, the Glazers are so un-typical American in their sporting ideas it's unreal. In the American ideal, the most important hire is the right GM. Everything else runs off him buying into the philosophy of the organization. With coaches short term interchangeable.

 

[Legend Incredible]

Eric Ten Hag would theoretically fit the current squad like a glove (albeit he'd still need a DM) but ofc, I don't know much about his management outside Ajax

 

[Legend Incredible]

Not the way football's evolving.

Which I find even more mad as for an American owned club, the Glazers are so un-typical American in their sporting ideas it's unreal. In the American ideal, the most important hire is the right GM. Everything else runs off him buying into the philosophy of the organization. With coaches short term interchangeable.

I believe they planned on implementing this post the takeover in 2005 but then they got complacent with Fergie managing virtually everything from top the bottom

 

[AlcIsBack]

A lot of what is being said here on Conte is just totally wrong unfortunately.

Conte has no system. He tailors his tactics to fit his squad. When he first came to Chelsea, he played a 4-3-3 / 4-2-3-1 for the first 4-5 games. Only later did he realize that a 3-4-3 suited us much better, made the switch and we stormed the league. Read his interviews. He is very clear when he says he has no preferred system. So the question of the squad fitting him or not does not apply.

Only problem with him is that he tends to get into conflicts with the board eventually. He wants complete control over player signings and squad management. He typically may not want to trust youth players too much. In return, he gets you challenging for major honours immediately. Trade-offs…

 

[Anthony]

In return, he gets you challenging for major honours immediately. Trade-offs…

I'll have that thank you very much.
I've been a fan since the 70's and watch football to be entertained.
Manchester United will be there long after I'm dead. I couldn't give a jockeys bolli.x what somebody builds for 2030!!!

I want you to play good football and make me smile NOW!!

I don't have money invested in you.
I'm not on the board of directors.
I won't lose my house if you don't install a manager with the next 20 years in mind.

Appoint a manager that will get the best out of these millionaires and entertain me.

 

[Legend Incredible]

A lot of what is being said here on Conte is just totally wrong unfortunately.

...he played a 4-3-3 / 4-2-3-1 for the first 4-5 games. Only later did he realize that a 3-4-3 suited us much better, made the switch and we stormed the league...

...He typically may not want to trust youth players too much...

But he's never consistently played with a back 4 now has he? Atleast be hasn't since his spell at Bari.

Also, the latter point of not trusting in youth really hits me the wrong way.

 

[Scouseinthehouse]

..... Appoint a manager that will get the best out of these millionaires and entertain me.

You weren't entertained yesterday, mate?

Shame. Utd sure entertained me.

 

[Scouseinthehouse]

 

[Legend Incredible]

Some decent news atleast

 

[Vanjagl]

Soon, very soon. I dont have any doubt he's gone. Question is when will his replacement be available. This leaves United with Conte and Zidane. And according to everyone, Conte is on Uniteds radar.

 

[wkdsoul]

But he's never consistently played with a back 4 now has he? Atleast be hasn't since his spell at Bari.

Also, the latter point of not trusting in youth really hits me the wrong way.

He played a 424 at Bari, its been 95% back 3 since.