The Manchester United Thread

[Legend Incredible]

Eh, we can mock #philosophy all we want, but it does in fact work vs. teams that actually come to win. Otherwise you wouldn't have stellar big game record while having the worst squad of the lot.

It's "park the bus" squad where United consistently struggle. Unfortunately no matter who manager is, there isn't a foolproof way to tactically outmaneuver a team that just sits deep with 10 people. You just need more quality. Mike would probably say you need more tempo, but these things are interconnected. Barca or Bayern can move the ball around at mesmerizing pace, but that's because even the janitor in Barca is more capable with the ball at his feet than the best player at United.

And I'd be wary of theories that, for example, Pochettino comes, changes the style and you're going to magically start crushing teams. You won't, because what works for Spurs doesn't necceserily work for United. People play Spurs to win, but they play United to draw. Big difference.

Teams park the bus against spurs tho.

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[Scouseinthehouse]

I wouldn't be so sure of Leicester dropping totally off, I mean they could become a real force if their billionaire owners lay down a marker in the summer, keeping their best players and adding to it.

It really depends on what their intentions are, if they sell their best players and don't invest then yes I'd agree. But I'm sure Leicester will try hard to build on this.

Mate, this is Leicester City we're talking about. Who do you realistically think of any note would go there? It's been a fairytale season, and all the credit in the World to them. Ranieri's taken an average bunch of pro's, added a couple of very good players into the mix, found a way of playing that suits them; and the belief and hard work has paid off as every last one of them has played above themselves to fantastic results this year. Along with everyone else being as erratically inconsistent as ever. Just one of those brilliant seasons that happens once a blue moon.

But Leicester becoming a 'real force?' When was the last time anyone so much as finished in the top 4 outside of Arsenal, Chelsea, L'pool, Utd or City? Everton in 2005? Newcastle under Keegan before that? Even Blackburn couldn't sustain it with all their riches. Because they're Blackburn. And Leicester are Leicester. Just not an attractive proposition.

Be great to think they could sustain it and keep on upsetting the applecart but the chances are it's just one miraculous season when everything fell into place.

 

[Scouseinthehouse]

It's not a new It's an actual flaw in his play, it's what led to the last season falling about. It's not a diss for gods sake. No need to get defensive because he's your manager. Analysis is what I do for a living, **** I got my job based on critiquing Klopp (good and bad).

Christ almighty

Seems you're getting pretty darn defensive there.

Tell us about that final season. And how he adapted Dortmund's style and changed through it to what he had to work with and how it turned around the second half. Lot of garbage been written in the media about his last year at Dortmund.

Utd would be in a **** of a lot better position going forward with him then what they're left scrambling for now that's a fact.

 

[Mike.]

Ranieri counter-attacking 4-4-2, seems more like better fit to me and old-school United. Whether it would work is a different story but just imagine Martial and Mahrez out wide with say Rashford and Rooney (as he is bound to stay eternally) up front.

Stuff of dreams, probably wouldn't work in the modern game at United like it does for Leicester but **** it would be entertaining.

What happens when sides stop giving you space?

Our problem isn't solved by Ranieri, because our problem is the inability to exploit small space. The master being Pep, but also Jose and Ancellotti among "relevant big names".

 

[Mike.]

Seems your getting pretty darn defensive there.

Tell us about that final season. And how he adapted Dortmund's style and changed through it to what he had to work with and how it turned around the second half. Lot of garbage been written in the media about his last year at Dortmund.

Utd would be in a **** of a lot better position going forward with him then what they're left scrambling for now that's a fact.

No, it's just you getting defensive as usual, so don't give me that nonsense.

Which media would that be? Since you know, the media isn't one homogenous being.

 

[Scouseinthehouse]

No, it's just you getting defensive as usual, so don't give me that nonsense.

Which media would that be? Since you know, the media isn't one homogenous being.

When you immediately jumped on a jokey line on you missing the boat on Klopp, it read to all intents and purposes as a 'diss' on him. To then respond in a heated fashion comes across as being defensive. It cuts both ways. Clam down. It was a misunderstanding and nothing more.

Our media at large the summer and early season when he was being linked as a possible to all and sundry.

 

[zzeezzy]

What happens when sides stop giving you space?

Our problem isn't solved by Ranieri, because our problem is the inability to exploit small space. The master being Pep, but also Jose and Ancellotti among "relevant big names".

We'd have the magic of Mahrez to get us a goal, just like against Watford. |)

 

[Tyton]

Teams park the bus against spurs tho.

Even if they do, there's a difference between being instructed to park the bus, and parking the bus because you're scared shitless of the team that dominated the league for last 25 years. The traditional top 4 have a brand that says "we'll rip you apart". Spurs have a brand that says "we'll ******* do them". Football is as much about tactics as it is about mentality. I wouldn't be surprised if someone analyzed what happens when Spurs lose the ball, and found that opponents tend to take more risks when countering, because "we'll ******* do them".

Leicester are going to have a same problem if they win the league, because then they'll have a brand, and people will stop falling for the trap of Leicester sitting deep and waiting to launch Vardy forward. Liverpool had the same problem after Rodgers second season. They nearly won the league with counter-attacking football, and how long that lasted? Next year every team came packing double banks of four, and Liverpool couldn't do ****, because they weren't set up to break down 10 man defenses.

 

[zzeezzy]

Mate, this is Leicester City we're talking about. Who do you realistically think of any note would go there? It's been a fairytale season, and all the credit in the World to them. Ranieri's taken an average bunch of pro's, added a couple of very good players into the mix, found a way of playing that suits them; and the belief and hard work has paid off as every last one of them has played above themselves to fantastic results this year. Along with everyone else being as erratically inconsistent as ever. Just one of those brilliant seasons that happens once a blue moon.

But Leicester becoming a 'real force?' When was the last time anyone so much as finished in the top 4 outside of Arsenal, Chelsea, L'pool, Utd or City? Everton in 2005? Newcastle under Keegan before that? Even Blackburn couldn't sustain it with all their riches. Because they're Blackburn. And Leicester are Leicester. Just not an attractive proposition.

Be great to think they could sustain it and keep on upsetting the applecart but the chances are it's just one miraculous season when everything fell into place.

Manchester City was Manchester City before the money from the arabs started to be splashed it brought a lot of top players.

Plus when you win a title, people take notice, it's a huge attraction and when you have money to offer as well, players will definitely go to Leicester.

Players had no reason to go to City other than for money at the start of their rise from the arabs.

 

[Mike.]

Fun fact answer: Klopp didn't actually change too much second half fundamentally (infact his one fundamental change was in 2013, when he added a more possession based way to gegenpressing). What he did was find a way to get them to work much harder (covering more ground again), which largely paid off, though they were once again torn apart by wolfsburg in the final, who were brutally clinical again dortmund's all out press. There is a reason why Klopp is a motivator, his game style is very much a mental/physical drain on the players, particularly the CD CM quartet

 

[Mike.]

We'd have the magic of Mahrez to get us a goal, just like against Watford. |)

Touche. But your light hearted reply touches a key point. The players look like they need a mental refreshment, it's not suprise that the younger players are doing well, they are playing on instinct, not drilled down. to beat no space, quick passing must be instinctive.

 

[zzeezzy]

Touche. But your light hearted reply touches a key point. The players look like they need a mental refreshment, it's not suprise that the younger players are doing well, they are playing on instinct, not drilled down. to beat no space, quick passing must be instinctive.

Yeh, exactly, someone else pointed this out and it's spot on.

 

[ninjaskill]

Manchester City was Manchester City before the money from the arabs started to be splashed it brought a lot of top players.

Plus when you win a title, people take notice, it's a huge attraction and when you have money to offer as well, players will definitely go to Leicester.

Players had no reason to go to City other than for money at the start of their rise from the arabs.

Throw in Champions League Group stage where they would be the first seed so a decent chance of getting through they could attract some very good players especially as billionaires own them and they would be getting tv money to spend

 

[Scouseinthehouse]

Fun fact answer: Klopp didn't actually change too much second half fundamentally (infact his one fundamental change was in 2013, when he added a more possession based way to gegenpressing). What he did was find a way to get them to work much harder (covering more ground again), which largely paid off, though they were once again torn apart by wolfsburg in the final, who were brutally clinical again dortmund's all out press. There is a reason why Klopp is a motivator, his game style is very much a mental/physical drain on the players, particularly the CD CM quartet

He didn't change and tweak the formation from what had been his base right through that last year down to the personnel he'd been left with after injuries and departures? I wouldn't know first hand not being a Dortmund follower, but I remember reading and seeing an excellent analysis of that final year to his others I'm trying to dig out.

 

[Mike.]

Yeh, exactly, someone else pointed this out and it's spot on.

That's why I want him to go. It's not about where we finish. The players need a change of enviroment. I actually think for the type of people they are, Jose suits that extremely well, as long as he doesn't hit his extremes. But he's not a fool as I say

 

[Mike.]

He didn't change and tweak the formation from what had been his base right through that last year down to the personnel he'd been left with after injuries and departures? I wouldn't know first hand not being a Dortmund follower, but I remember reading and seeing an excellent analysis of that final year to his others I'm trying to dig out.

No more than he has done over the last 6 years. There wasn't a fundamental tactical shift. There was tweaking as you would expect, but a lot of it simply came down to getting the players to mentally respond, If you are half hearted in the press, you will get beat by the direct counter.

 

[Scouseinthehouse]

Throw in Champions League Group stage where they would be the first seed so a decent chance of getting through they could attract some very good players especially as billionaires own them and they would be getting tv money to spend

Be interesting to see how this develops or not. I tend to side with the added burden of European football being the killer to their season next year and Leicester having as much likelihood as being down the bottom end as sustaining it the top but you and zz may be right and the opposite will happen.

Be interesting to see how it unfolds after this miraculous year.

 

[ninjaskill]

Be interesting to see how this develops or not. I tend to side with the added burden of European football being the killer to their season next year and Leicester having as much likelihood as being down the bottom end as sustaining it the top but you and zz may be right and the opposite will happen.

Be interesting to see how it unfolds after this miraculous year.

It may but, it is a good attraction for players that could help them stay at a similar level and the impact on sides in Europe is split it hurts some and helps others.

They would need a bigger squad and a bit more rotation than they have currently have but, they have a decent shot of doing well if they do well in the transfer market

 

[Scouseinthehouse]

Manchester City was Manchester City before the money from the arabs started to be splashed it brought a lot of top players.....

..... Players had no reason to go to City other than for money at the start of their rise from the arabs.

Just as a general point, aside from the differing status of both clubs traditionally .....

As much as it pains me to say this, Manchester is a fantastic City, with some very attractive outlaying areas if you're wealthy. We have in the North West two City's that offer absolutely everything you could wish for from a major, modern City that are both on at least a parallel in many ways to a lot of what London has to offer.

You don't have to sell Manchester and Liverpool.

Leicester and the East Midlands on the other hand is a completely different proposition.

 

[Subtle]

I sometimes wonder if I'm the only one who remembers Dortmund struggling immensely for ages under Klopp due to fatigue. Not that they weren't successful, but the players always looked absolutely exhausted when they were trying to fight for Europe and the league at the same time.

Not only that but once teams started to just cede possession vs them, they seriously suffered. It took Klopp a fair amount of time to adapt to it, and even then they were never really convincing. He basically tweaked his existing system as much as he could to fight the problem but it was still there.

Neither of those are damning, but he is very much a manager who favours a certain approach and he has to be at a club where that approach is useful. It's why he's well suited to a tier 2 club like Liverpool and why he is the last thing United need right now if they want to hang onto their status as a tier 1. It's also why taking Mourinho on will either work out spectacularly for them or be terrible. If he is as dogmatic and stubborn as he was with us, then they're ******. If the Jose of old turns up though, pragmatic and willing to do what it takes to win, expect them to be an absolute force again.