The Manchester United Thread
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Scouseinthehouse
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Completely disagree.
Aside from every point over a season being decisive by definition, games between the top sides are often the deciding factor to final placings and can be the all important difference between finishing 1st through 4th, or 5th/ 6th.
If you're involved in the top 4/ title hunt, you win that mini league of games between the big 4-6 clubs, there's every chance you're finishing above the rest of them.
Why didn't that work out under LVG then? We were probably best team with our record of beating the bigger teams under him but we still failed miserably because we didn't pick up enough points off the smaller teams.
Scouseinthehouse
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Rhetorical? You weren't seriously involved at the very top end for them to count. If you'd picked up the points against the lesser sides, those results would of had Utd finishing a lot higher than the other top sides.
I think the importance of beating the smaller teams is more than beating the bigger teams. Admittedly it is rather a fruitless argument because one could say that whilst you will ultimately end up with more points from the smaller teams as there is more of them, the psychological boost from beating the bigger teams gives you that extra confidence or rise in form to beat the smaller teams.
So tonight is very important then???
If you look at it from a neutral point of view probably not so much as it is just 3 points, but considering the rivalry and moral boost it will give the winner I'd say it is important. It's not a defining game but it will certainly leave a lasting impact on the winner and loser for the next few games they play at least.
Scouseinthehouse
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Right. So for the sake of argument all the big teams win a similar amount of expected games against the smaller clubs. The games between the big guns become vital and the deciding factor in finishing 1 through 4 or outside that.
You can't quantify one being more important than the other. The point being EVERY point is crucial at any stage of the year. But you can't downplay the importance of results between the top 6 sides. If you're taking points off a rival side you expect to be contending with you all the better as you're increasing your chances of finishing above them.
Yes, I'd agree with you for the most part, although there is always different perspectives on how you look at it.
Personally I just think Liverpool vs Manchester United, it's a huge game no matter what the occasion and something I've been thinking about all throughout the tiresome International break.
Scouseinthehouse
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That's the other side of tonight. It's a defining point for both clubs however you try downplay it.
L'pool win, they go top/ joint top the league, having played by far the toughest schedule, and add Utd's scalp to Arsenal, Chelsea, the (all be it back to average) Champions and a draw at Tottenham from a game they completely dominated. Another catalyst to their growing belief they can win the title.
Utd lose and they're already looking at three defeats from the first 8 games. Two of which would of come against the two favourites for the league. With a gap beginning to open not just in points but the other goals scored/ difference factors. And staring a then must win game at Stamford Bridge the weekend even at this early stage. Not the way it was supposed to go under Mourinho.
For differing reasons, tonight is a massive defining factor even this early in the season IMHO.
How defining for Liverpool should they lose?
Scouseinthehouse
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Probably more so the fans. The team have the best motivator in the game IMHO to boost them straight back up. But for the fans, it would be defining and devastating.
Most everyone has fully bought in and believes we're right in the title hunt. With more and more by the game believing we're gonna' end the title drought and win the league. With what's seen as an average, rebuilding Utd coming to Anfield and beating L'pool again, that would be a blow to the current euphoria among the fanbase.
Devastation amongst the base of the losing fans in this fixture is a given though, I don't think if United were to go and beat Liverpool, it would be all that defining in your season.
Results are really mixed, City went to Spurs and lost and you lot only drew with them (not saying they aren't a terrific side) but there's every chance we could go to both there & Turf Moor and get 6 points (where your lot took 1 from 6), followed by let's say getting 3 points against Everton at home unlike City, and then on your behalf you could batter Stoke at home and go away to Watford and get the win, despite us failing to do that. I think Mike's right in terms of this being way too early for this to have any more bearings than having extreme bragging rights and a psychological boost/blow going into the Europa League or next weekend. There'll be plenty of twists & turns and many more bumps on the road until May, fasten your seat belts.
But my God this game feels like a CL final in terms of how long we've had to wait to see this granddaddy fixture of English football, not only an international break, but to wait until ****** Monday night.
Results are really mixed, City went to Spurs and lost and you lot only drew with them (not saying they aren't a terrific side) but there's every chance we could go to both there & Turf Moor and get 6 points (where your lot took 1 from 6), followed by let's say getting 3 points against Everton at home unlike City, and then on your behalf you could batter Stoke at home and go away to Watford and get the win, despite us failing to do that. I think Mike's right in terms of this being way too early for this to have any more bearings than having extreme bragging rights and a psychological boost/blow going into the Europa League or next weekend. There'll be plenty of twists & turns and many more bumps on the road until May, fasten your seat belts.
But my God this game feels like a CL final in terms of how long we've had to wait to see this granddaddy fixture of English football, not only an international break, but to wait until ****** Monday night.
xJamieWilliams
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Spot on with that. Wouldnt say this was a defining game but because of the rivalry it always feels like it is. I hate losing to you to United more than I should really, but I love the fact that there is a rivalry like that in football, otherwise it would be boring!
100% agree with the Champions League final comments, I'm confident we will do you this time, but keep getting flashbacks to all the times (on form) we should have and ended up coming away with a 1-0 loss.
Hopefully its a great game tonight with a lot of fight in it.
And I've put a really optimistic tenner on 4-1 to Liverpool!
Im a fool! The psychological effect (especially on us trying to find our feet with Mou) of losing this match even this early would be quite big ... Im wit Scouse on this one
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Theatre of dreams
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No way is this game decisive for the season. But would **** suck to lose!
Theatre of dreams
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Shaw and a Mky have traveled.
United would often win the league sitting average in the big 6 table.
Conversely LVG had an immense top 6 record. No titles.
Why: because there are 26 other games out there, that's 78 points.
That's what wins you titles.
I stand by my original point.
Thus completely negating your point about the mini league.
Again United were regular winners by destroying the rest of the league, pick up draws away to big 4/5, and beat them a few times at home.