2011 Copa América Discussion Thread.

Vanjagl said:
One run is not good enough. Like I said, I expect more.
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i was being sarcastic, because you seem to think he should run the midfield and attack, if you read the piece you will see argentina's problem. Again you still havent said what you expect of him
 
Mike. said:
i was being sarcastic, because you seem to think he should run the midfield and attack, if you read the piece you will see argentina's problem. Again you still havent said what you expect of him
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Sorry, I don't have time to read it now. I'll do it later. Yes, Messi should run the midfield and attack, like he does in Barcelona ? Now I said what I expect :)
 
Vanjagl said:
Sorry, I don't have time to read it now. I'll do it later. Yes, Messi should run the midfield and attack, like he does in Barcelona ? Now I said what I expect :)
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except he doesnt do that for barca either. he still needs supply from the midfield two. Something he doesnt get here, because none of them drive forwards, and only Banega provides
 
why sometimes coaches are so stubborn. Clearly masch-banega-cambiasso trio doesn't work and Lavezzi is ***** but Batista keep benching Pastore and Aguero/Higuain.
 
luckiboi said:
why sometimes coaches are so stubborn. Clearly masch-banega-cambiasso trio doesn't work and Lavezzi is ***** but Batista keep benching Pastore and Aguero/Higuain.
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The quickest way to get a lot more from messi is to bench Masch, move Cambiasso deeper and bring on Pastore, giving the midfield a similar look to Barca, which is what Bielsa is actually trying to do, which is why i dont understand why he hasnt done this already
 
Mike. said:
nonsense. like any forward, if you get no supply, you cannot function, no matter how good you are. and if you are going to criticise messi (i dont care who is better either way,but at least get your facts right) messi got 18 assists, averages 2 key passes a game, and makes 67 passes a game, only person being a "hater" is you

Messi's and argentina problem stems for the midfield, one of Cambiasso or Mascherano needs to be dropped, and Pastore

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the supply from argentina's midfield is poor and pretty inconsistent, should be Pastore and Banega, Cambiasso behind

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as the stats show, that statement is just wrong
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Well Mike I think you'd agree his assists do not come from precision passing or his extra ordinary killer ball skills but rather his indecision he causes by running at the opponents, which is why I firmly stand by my statement and am offended for your accusation... unlike your "theres a black view and a White view" I like to think things are not as simply and that there is also a "grey view" by your logic as messi had that many assists he is a extra ordinary playmaker however you would then have to argue that Luka Modric is a poor play maker then... Not So?
 
Can't believe I stayed up to watch that game, it was pathetic. Firstly, that Moreno needs a good slap for missing that sitter (although, I would've given the penalty tbh). Secondly, how did Messi last 90 minutes? It was probably the worst I've ever seen him play. The manager seems like a right idiot. I think their best line-up (with this squad) would be :

Romero
Zabaleta Burdisso Milito Zanetti
Cambiasso Banega
Messi Pastore Aguero
Higuain


​
 
luke the blanco said:
Well Mike I think you'd agree his assists do not come from precision passing or his extra ordinary killer ball skills but rather his indecision he causes by running at the opponents, which is why I firmly stand by my statement and am offended for your accusation... unlike your "theres a black view and a White view" I like to think things are not as simply and that there is also a "grey view" by your logic as messi had that many assists he is a extra ordinary playmaker however you would then have to argue that Luka Modric is a poor play maker then... Not So?
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Now who is arguing the black and white view? You dont seem to distinguish between a playmaker forward (Messi, or Rooney etc) and playmaking midfielder (Modric, Pastore, Xavi, Giggs). The forward can create plenty, but he still needs the ball from deep to so. To create with the ball, you must have the ball in the first place

Your statment is flawed. for him to get the assists he still needs to pass the ball, as shown by his two key passes each game, and successful through ball each game, as well as the number of passes he makes, of course his dribbling takes players out, but its only then he makes the key pass.

Lets not take credit away from Guarin and co, they were exceptional in cutting off the small supply he was getting from Banega
 
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Mike. said:
except he doesnt do that for barca either. he still needs supply from the midfield two. Something he doesnt get here, because none of them drive forwards, and only Banega provides
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Finally, that's my point. That's why I rate Xavi and Iniesta more. Messi isn't simply the same player without them. And he runs from midfield to attack in Barca, Xavi and Iniesta are there to help him.
 
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Vanjagl said:
Finally, that's my point. That's why I rate Xavi and Iniesta more. Messi isn't simply the same player without them. And he runs from midfield to attack in Barca, Xavi and Iniesta are there to help him.
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I never disagreed with that, but that stands for any forward in the world. You will always need your midfielders. And for Argentina he needs Pastore.
 
Mike. said:
Now who is arguing the black and white view? You dont seem to distinguish between a playmaker forward (Messi, or Rooney etc) and playmaking midfielder (Modric, Pastore, Xavi, Giggs). The forward can create plenty, but he still needs the ball from deep to so.

Your statment is flawed. for him to get the assists he still needs to pass the ball, as shown by his two key passes each game, and successful through ball each game, as well as the number of passes he makes, of course his dribbling takes players out, but its only then he makes the key pass.

Lets not take credit away from Guarin and co, they were exceptional in cutting off the small supply he was getting from Banega
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The argument is not about his ability or even whether he can pass or not... He is very special and yes his assists help but my argument is it is impossiable to make use of him as your central playmaker.... he relies on Xavi... if you went and read my first post this is what i said....


He is so good at Barce because Xavi effectively takes the midfield pressure off him and he can run at and take a number of players off the ball to deliver his sometimes mediocre pass to a open player which isnt to hard to find considering they play with 3 forwards and Xavi and co have already nullified the opp mid leaving a 4 vs 3 oppurtunity.... this is why I said Messi is not the man to be played as a playmaker but instead as a striker.. with pastore the playmaker... and the two pacy player Di Maria and Lavezzi either side
 
luke the blanco said:
The argument is not about his ability or even whether he can pass or not... He is very special and yes his assists help but my argument is it is impossiable to make use of him as your central playmaker.... he relies on Xavi... if you went and read my first post this is what i said....


He is so good at Barce because Xavi effectively takes the midfield pressure off him and he can run at and take a number of players off the ball to deliver his sometimes mediocre pass to a open player which isnt to hard to find considering they play with 3 forwards and Xavi and co have already nullified the opp mid leaving a 4 vs 3 oppurtunity.... this is why I said Messi is not the man to be played as a playmaker but instead as a striker.. with pastore the playmaker... and the two pacy player Di Maria and Lavezzi either side
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I never once said he should be a central playmaker, he has never been deployed as central playmaker, but he is still a playmaker forward.

my point is that the mediocre pass statement is utterly wrong as shown by the stats, Messi has a passing accuracy of 86%, which is high for any player, especially a forward. It's also higher than Pastore's. Messi will still be deployed as a playmaker forward, regardless of whether Pastore plays. A False Nine still needs a midfield supply, all forwards need a midfield supply, before they can create
 
Mike. said:
I never disagreed with that, but that stands for any forward in the world. You will always need your midfielders. And for Argentina he needs Pastore.
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Im hoping you are right. But still, I have my doubts. I would look good if I ever play with Xavi and Iniesta. Messi is one off the best in the world, without doubt, but with Xavi and Iniesta, he's godlike. With Banega and Cambiasso, mediocre.
 
Vanjagl said:
Im hoping you are right. But still, I have my doubts. I would look good if I ever play with Xavi and Iniesta. Messi is one off the best in the world, without doubt, but with Xavi and Iniesta, he's godlike. With Banega and Cambiasso, mediocre.
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Because it shouldnt be Banega and Cambiasso, but Banega and Pastore.
 
Mike. said:
I never once said he should be a central playmaker, he has never been deployed as central playmaker, but he is still a playmaker forward.

my point is that the mediocre pass statement is utterly wrong as shown by the stats, Messi has a passing accuracy of 86%, which is high for any player, especially a forward. It's also higher than Pastore's. Messi will still be deployed as a playmaker forward, regardless of whether Pastore plays. A False Nine still needs a midfield supply, all forwards need a midfield supply, before they can create
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First off we both to stubborn to admit defeat here... We basically saying the same thing however we just differ in our opinion of how he gets his assists... Pastore has a higher chance creation rate... yes admittedly at a lower level club but all I'm saying is unlike Batista said he cannot be the playmaker of the side...


yes he is a playmaker forward but its alot easier being a playmaker forward when you just gotta make play against the opp back 4... Hence the necessity for a much much deeper playmaker.... Hence my comment he cannot be the sole playmaker (If you really wanna consider him a playmaker in the first place)
 
luke the blanco said:
Boy do i hope they crash out...or atleast get tough draw for next round :)
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im not argentinian nor do i particular care if they go through or not, i just want to see a more attacking Copa

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Vanjagl said:
I only want to see Argentina and Brazil in final. So, until that moment, I'll support Argentina.
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I just want to see the teams hit their potential, been a pretty quiet tournie
 
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