[Barcelona][Tested With Athletic Bilbao] La Masia Philosophy
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Okay thx mate for trying this tactic, really appreciated it. and also thx for your comments
Yes i have to admit he is not heavily involved in build up play, but it doesnt mean that he is a waste of a player. Because from all barca's matches that i have watched, i have studied how villa play and i can concluded that his role is to make dummy run to drag defenders to him so that messi can find spaces, so basically he is a type of player that make sacrifices for sake of the team.
But usually when messi is heavily man marked, he make many genius forward runs and good of the ball movement so that messi or other players can make through balls to him
Remember when barca trashed real madrid 5-0 last season, when villa scores 2 goals and all assists came from messi.
Run from deep often and the base position U have set for the role causes him to sit near the corner flag most likely. I'd place him as proper AML with run from deep sometimes or often and then dunno does the role have wide play as move into channels or Cut inside, but I would test both and see which works better. Barca tend to have 5 player line in the opposition half and then Xavi and Busquets a bit lower.
Thx mate for your comments mate. Really appreciated it, all of your comments is very helpfull. And are you still trying this tactic?
And to be honest, the problem that our friend above encountered Is only happened in original version. Never happened with me again in v2 tactic
Well Im not using it currently, but maybe in da future
btw Im curious why the Messi AMC role has run from deep often and Dani Alves sometimes? Alves shud be often as he always gets up there, being the ''Inside Forward'' on the right flank. And Messi, he drops always deep, he aint the one who creates space, hes the one who drops deep, moves into channels and gives passing options and then he runs with the ball towards the goal, dribbles the half field and places his shot in the corner.
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so would you have messi run from deep often?
i thought i have made a good explanation on the first page :'(, but well its okay mate will try to answer your question.
1). About dani alves role, yes surely IRL he makes many forward run, but in term of FM i found it not to good because, he will just wildly run over the right side of the pitch and not giving xavi passing option, but yes i do sometimes changes his forward runs to often when i needed it
2). About messi role in AMC. First, i hate to say it, but i think we interpret it differently. Usually people think messi start as the front men and drops deep, but i do think different. I have watched many of barcelonas matches and what i interpret is messi do not start from number 9 role, but he start from AMC but he usually makes good of the ball movement and forward runs so thats sometimes he is the furthest player on the pitch, but he also usually drops deep into middle of the field, and sometimes very deep where sometimes we could easily see him in his own half, helping build up play.
I also agree with you about messi who, drops deep, moves into channels, gives passing options and runs with ball towards the goal, cut inside and then make a jaw dropping shots that slots in the corner. but that is old school messi, rarely saw him doing that again. Last time i saw him frequently do that, it was 2008/2009 season.
But i have to disagree about he didn't creates space, what i do think is, everyone in barcelona creates space, because they had their philosophy, football is all about brain not about muscle. And i also think that, player drops deep to create spaces aren't they?
I also wants to share some good article that might be helpful that support my explanation above (A):
1). ZonalMarking.net (Mourinho used Pepe as defensive midfielder)
2). ZonalMarking.net (Mourinho countered false nine)
I also wants to share some good videos, that also might be useful:
[video=youtube;LDUlOFtngMk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDUlOFtngMk&feature=channel_video_title[/video]
In this first video, we could easily see messi in the first minutes of the video that he makes forward runs to find spaces behind the defenders. And also i think its very clear in the last minutes of the video he drops very deep dragging carvalho out of his position, so that would be mean one hole has been created in madrid defense, so therefore iniesta make forward run to exploit spaces that created by messi. I think this is what i mean about messi drops deep than created spaces for his team mates
[video=youtube;YyDx8SH81rc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyDx8SH81rc[/video]
in this second video, although the formation is 343 but basically their playing style is the same the only difference is they add more men in midfield and they cut one man in defense.
in this second video especially from the 4th minutes to the last minutes, i think we can clearly see that messi drops very deep, he is not even the furthest player on the pitch, how he creates spaces for his team mates, released assist for them, dragging defenders from his position and also make forward runs from midfield to the back of villareal defense line
Cheers mate, this explanation from me might be helpful, might be not
(A)
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i thought i have made a good explanation on the first page :'(, but well its okay mate will try to answer your question.
1). About dani alves role, yes surely IRL he makes many forward run, but in term of FM i found it not to good because, he will just wildly run over the right side of the pitch and not giving xavi passing option, but yes i do sometimes changes his forward runs to often when i needed it
2). About messi role in AMC. First, i hate to say it, but i think we interpret it differently. Usually people think messi start as the front men and drops deep, but i do think different. I have watched many of barcelonas matches and what i interpret is messi do not start from number 9 role, but he start from AMC but he usually makes good of the ball movement and forward runs so thats sometimes he is the furthest player on the pitch, but he also usually drops deep into middle of the field, and sometimes very deep where sometimes we could easily see him in his own half, helping build up play.
I also agree with you about messi who, drops deep, moves into channels, gives passing options and runs with ball towards the goal, cut inside and then make a jaw dropping shots that slots in the corner. but that is old school messi, rarely saw him doing that again. Last time i saw him frequently do that, it was 2008/2009 season.
But i have to disagree about he didn't creates space, what i do think is, everyone in barcelona creates space, because they had their philosophy, football is all about brain not about muscle. And i also think that, player drops deep to create spaces aren't they?
I also wants to share some good article that might be helpful that support my explanation above (A):
1). ZonalMarking.net (Mourinho used Pepe as defensive midfielder)
2). ZonalMarking.net (Mourinho countered false nine)
I also wants to share some good videos, that also might be useful:
[video=youtube;LDUlOFtngMk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDUlOFtngMk&feature=channel_video_title[/video]
In this first video, we could easily see messi in the first minutes of the video that he makes forward runs to find spaces behind the defenders. And also i think its very clear in the last minutes of the video he drops very deep dragging carvalho out of his position, so that would be mean one hole has been created in madrid defense, so therefore iniesta make forward run to exploit spaces that created by messi. I think this is what i mean about messi drops deep than created spaces for his team mates
[video=youtube;YyDx8SH81rc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyDx8SH81rc[/video]
in this second video, although the formation is 343 but basically their playing style is the same the only difference is they add more men in midfield and they cut one man in defense.
in this second video especially from the 4th minutes to the last minutes, i think we can clearly see that messi drops very deep, he is not even the furthest player on the pitch, how he creates spaces for his team mates, released assist for them, dragging defenders from his position and also make forward runs from midfield to the back of villareal defense line
Cheers mate, this explanation from me might be helpful, might be not
Nice vid's, but first, I didnt disagree about his position in the formation, he is AMC without a question, but U have him run from deep often, which makes his ''top priority'' to create space, lurk up and run there, when he should be more deeper and be more helpful in terms of build-up. I'd put run from deep sometimes and then he wouldn't escape behind the opposition in terms of FM.
And of course he creates space if he drops deeper, but I kinda explained what I meant already.
Regarding Dani Alves, make him in line with the back four and try then. He will go up, but as the base position is RB, he will run back down.
Also how come you havent set Xavi', Iniesta's and Busquets's role wide play as Move into channels? It will only increase their movement as they try to look for the channels, open space to offer passing lines. In terms of FM, I think all players whi participate in attacking play shud have Move into channels
Also David Villa role's run from deep often I could question as he's base position is already so high. I'd make it sometimes.
Also Messi's role might work if U put run from deep rarely, but Run with ball often with much creative freedom and normal/attacking mentality. Then he would drop down even more and as he is set to roam from position, he will still go for through balls if someone sets him up. He would also drag defenders out of position and dribble with the ball.
Suggestions, what you could try and I might try when I have the time.
Nice vid's, but first, I didnt disagree about his position in the formation, he is AMC without a question, but U have him run from deep often, which makes his ''top priority'' to create space, lurk up and run there, when he should be more deeper and be more helpful in terms of build-up. I'd put run from deep sometimes and then he wouldn't escape behind the opposition in terms of FM.
And of course he creates space if he drops deeper, but I kinda explained what I meant already.
Regarding Dani Alves, make him in line with the back four and try then. He will go up, but as the base position is RB, he will run back down.
Also how come you havent set Xavi', Iniesta's and Busquets's role wide play as Move into channels? It will only increase their movement as they try to look for the channels, open space to offer passing lines. In terms of FM, I think all players whi participate in attacking play shud have Move into channels
Also David Villa role's run from deep often I could question as he's base position is already so high. I'd make it sometimes.
Also Messi's role might work if U put run from deep rarely, but Run with ball often with much creative freedom and normal/attacking mentality. Then he would drop down even more and as he is set to roam from position, he will still go for through balls if someone sets him up. He would also drag defenders out of position and dribble with the ball.
Suggestions, what you could try and I might try when I have the time.
thx mate, really appreciated it. thank you for willing to participate to make this tactic better and better
good idea mate, will try to put your idea into this tactic and will see how it works
i've used the second version of this tactic for about 15 games using barcelona.. i don't know if i am not coin something right, but goals seem to be hard to come by even with 70% possession and 90% passing accuracy. watching the games the box is just too crowded and no one is making runs, seems to be wasting the possession. and then the opposition is scoring goals with which i must say are pretty ordinary goals like long shots and such.
i have reread this whole thread.. your saying when a team sits back and parks the bus you change the tempo to slower and when they press high you play faster right? and the width when the sit back is to be wider?
i have reread this whole thread.. your saying when a team sits back and parks the bus you change the tempo to slower and when they press high you play faster right? and the width when the sit back is to be wider?
So you are using barca with this tactic? yes that is how i usually do it, when a team sits back i usually decrease the tempo and time wasting up to 2 clicks but usually just 1 click. I also widen the width up to 2 clicks when the opps play extreme way (sits very deep or press very high). Have you read one of post about tempo, time wasting, and width on page 13? that might be useful for you
but thats weird mate, never had real problem using this tactic with barca, because as you know i worked the basis of this tactic with barca
What patch do you use? how big is your pitch dimension?
Most likely scenario is;
They play deep, very rigid and dont leave holes in their defense. Very humble playstyle, no-one is allowed to break from the tactical instructions. Now here you come, have the possession, but as you play with Slow tempo, things will look to happen more slower than usual and combined with hold up ball, they will rather take the safer option (pass again) instead of trying something more risky. Now as you look to make things more slower, finding the clear chance to score the goal, the opposition has time to adapt to your movement. Also passing is short and some of your players have run from deep often, which most likely sees them behind the defenders and unavailable for pass. Thats why I dislike run from deep as often. If you encounter these situations again, I suggest more width as arikubis told and also Time wasting zero with a faster tempo. Faster the tempo, faster the things look to happen.
And to say the truth what we all know, its impossible to emulate Barcelona with the current ME.
and to ramie, I missed your post earlier, no, the quite opposite as I said in earlier post. Re-read it
mokodancok
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hi,
i saw a lot of barca tactics in the net use hold up ball for their players, including this tactic. isn't it barca passing the ball around quickly in real life ? if i'm not mistaken, the players who are allowed to delay ball (hold up ball) are xavi (playmaker) and busquets (anchorman).
but in your tactic almost all players are holding up the ball. yes, that gives more posession and more passes for xavi. but if you see in full match mode, it doesn't look like barca. in real barca, i saw a lot of 1-touch passes, 1-2's, or even 1-2-3's. and that won't happen if a player holds up a ball.
correct me if i'm wrong....
i saw a lot of barca tactics in the net use hold up ball for their players, including this tactic. isn't it barca passing the ball around quickly in real life ? if i'm not mistaken, the players who are allowed to delay ball (hold up ball) are xavi (playmaker) and busquets (anchorman).
but in your tactic almost all players are holding up the ball. yes, that gives more posession and more passes for xavi. but if you see in full match mode, it doesn't look like barca. in real barca, i saw a lot of 1-touch passes, 1-2's, or even 1-2-3's. and that won't happen if a player holds up a ball.
correct me if i'm wrong....
Yes, but as I said, ME aint good enough to emulate Barca totally. If you dont use hold up ball, they will try to get better result attacking wise and then you dont get the proper passing amounts. In terms of FM, Hold up ball needs to be implented, tho not necessarily to all players...
and to ramie, I missed your post earlier, no, the quite opposite as I said in earlier post. Re-read it
Haha I had a mad moment... yeah I believe to that RFD should be rarely, messi def performs better. However, it doesnt seem to score for me, he is rarely shooting. I have unticked holds up ball, lowered mentality and even made him TM but nothing
That is because messi already have Comes Deep to Get the Ball ppm. and so far i haven't got any problem with messi run from deep often, although the opposition park the plane in front of their goal, he rarely seen behind the defenders. As shown in my first video in the OP and also this video below;
[video=youtube;xYfTPZZrXFE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYfTPZZrXFE&feature=player_embedded[/video]
as shown in this video the defenders play very narrow and deep to make sure no holes in their defense also the gap between defense line and midfield line is also very narrow. But my midfield successfully find gap between them and released through ball to feed messi, and yes one opposition defenders had to tripped messi and refs awarded penalty for messi
I may be repeating something you made have answered earlier in the thread but how can I get Messi dribbling and shooting more?
1)Should you tweak my team settings during the game i.e up the temp and width
2)Tweak a few of Messi's tactic
i don't even remember if i had answer that kind of question before, though it is, it is not even a problem to ask it again mate. Will try to help you if i can and if i have the knowledge for it
but before i can help you, could you explain in more detail what is the problem is. Does he never try to dribble past the opponents or releasing shot although only once or twice?