actually liverpool were incredibly successful playing 4-4-2. He isnt doing it for Carroll's sake, that's how Dalglish plays, thats why he paid that much for Carroll. He isnt changing to suit Carroll, he bought Carroll and Suarez to suit how he plays
Carroll 'not yet ready for debut'
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But Kenny is supposed to be an interim manager...he really shouldn't be making long-term, expensive buys just based on how he wants to play. True, people are now saying they want Kenny to stay, but this has only happened in the past few weeks. As far as the 4-4-2 goes it was used a lot this season, and much of the time it was an utter failure. Also, Liverpool's great times in this era were with the 4-5-1, with Gerrard as the AMC with, freedom to roam, putting in through balls to the speedy skilled striker, Torres. Suarez to me was the ideal replacement for Torres, and the 4-5-1 is what is best for Liverpool because Gerrard is the club's best player and the team should revolve around him. The 4-5-1 plays to his strengths and gives him the freedom to make magic happen. That's why Liverpool had so much success with it over the past several years. I think the 4-4-2 would be bad for Gerrard. So that's why they should have stayed with the 4-5-1 and invested Torres' money in a LB and LM. I think the team would be much better off that way. Kenny is a good manager and should be expected to use the formation that fits the team best.
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its obviously clear he isnt going to be interim manager, other other wise they wouldnt have let him spend 50 million on two players.
again you cannot compare roy's terrible rigid 4-4-2 with dalglish's fluid 4-4-2. Gerrard is capable of playing MC well these days, he will have no problems, plays it well for england and played it well under roy.
Are my eyes deceiving me?! Mike and Steven Gerrard playing well in CM in the same sentence?!
****** ****.
Contrary to belief, one of Gerrards best seasons for Liverpool came as a right midfielder. Him on the right, Lucas and Meireles in the centre and someone on the left with Suarez and Carroll up front is what I believe Kenny is working towards. Yes he is a caretaker at the moment, but believe me, he won't be for much longer. He won't be spending £55m+ on strikers if he was out the door in 6 months time.
he is still incredibly fit, but no longer the monster engine he once was, and he has matured in his postional play finally, which make him ideal as a player breaking from mc to support the attack when needed
the lopsided 4-4-2 i am talking about. like said on another thread, liverpool will sign in a flying left winger come the summer
They had been working on the Suarez deal before Kenny, and it was a great move. But the Carroll deal? I don't think that Kenny was asking for it...sure he was consulted, but I think the owners wanted to buy a good young English player with that money because they would be afraid of a fan backlash if they sold Torres and didn't buy a replacement. I really think they should have waited til summer (especially since in the summer they would know exactly what the coaching situation would be). A few weeks ago few thought that Kenny was more than an interim manager, and we still don't know...what if he decides not to? He might decide that he's too old or something.
Gerrard playing well for England? I rate Gerrard really highly but he's just not the same player for England...I'm not saying though that he can't make a good MC, I'm saying that he's better as an AMC, and since he's their best player, they should build the team around him. I stand by my statement that a 4-5-1 with Gerrard as the AMC (and Meireles in when Gerrard is hurt), Suarez up top, and a really good promising young LB and LM, plus whatever squad reinforcements that would come in the summer, would have been better than a 4-4-2 with Carroll and Suarez.
No.
1) Daliglish wont be going anywhere soon, he has been jumping to get this chance, and he is younger than SAF
2) Dalglish has been keen to build a side that doesnt rely on a single player
3) The owner are not short term thinkers, they would have bought becuase Comolli and Dalglish want him. If those two didnt want him he wouldnt have been signed. Dalglish was also consolted on the Suarez deal, he hasnt just been hanging round the club for no reason.
4) There wouldnt have been a backlash if no one had been bought, they got 50 million for a player who didnt want to be there
you seem intent on undermining this signing on no real basis
Comolli had been working on the deal, Kenny came in and gave him the go ahead. I think Kenny signed Andy Carroll, Kenny played in a time when Livepool always had little and large partnerships (Keegan and Toshack, himself and Rush) so I reckon he signed Carroll to play alongside Suarez. I'll bet you any amount of money that if Kenny is offered the job full-time he will take it.
Gerrard doesn't have the passion for England he does for Liverpool, never has. It has nothing to do with his position but at Liverpool he gives his all, sometimes playing for England, he doesn't. I agree his best position is AM, however he is now getting on, and I reckon deploying him as a deep-lying playmaker would be our best option, try and save his legs. I reckon we'll be 4-4-2 when Kenny gets his desired players, it's what he knows best.
Gerrard is getting on now though. He can't be running up and down the pitch forever, he's no Ryan Giggs after all! It doesn't make much sense for Liverpool's long term thinking owners to centre a team around an ageing midfielder. They have a young strike force in Suarez and Carroll now that compliment each other well. They could spend the majority of their playing career's together, imagine if they develop the almost psychic relationship of Yorke-Cole. No one will be criticising this transfer then, regardless of the fee.
All this has sense and by me it is very much true.
1. I'm simply responding to your claim that it was obvious they wanted to hire Kenny...we don't know what they're thinking, and a few weeks ago, few thought this would be a long term thing. He doesn't fit the profile for what NESV wanted. And what if the results didn't go well? Certainly he wouldn't have been hired. In the last few weeks though there have been some big results, especially the Chelsea game, and now everyone wants him to stay. But I don't think you can claim that was the idea from the beginning.
2. OK, well then the money could be spent wisely on several good players so they won't be relying so much on Carroll.
3. I never said Kenny wasn't consulted, obviously he was, but I don't think you cite the Suarez and Carroll deals as proof that NESV wants him to stay. Especially the Suarez deal, which was in the making before Kenny.
4. I heard a lot of Liverpool fans saying during the Torres transfer talk that if Torres left and there wasn't a replacement for him they'd be furious.
I'm not undermining this signing on no real basis, I think there are plenty of people that agree with me that the money could have been better spent. If Suarez is 22 million there is no way Carroll is 38. The two excuses I hear are that Liverpool had little time and was forced to pay too much and that because Carroll is English. Well, Liverpool could/should have waited until the summer (I mean, the chances of them qualifying for the Champions League are very, very slim, and at the end of January it looked impossible), and they definitely didn't have to buy an English player. There is no reason they had to overspend. If I were the owners and Newcastle rejected the 30 million bid I would have said **** no. Then I would have gotten him for half the price at the end of the season after he complained about wanting to leave for Liverpool. Or, I would have spent time looking for the perfect players to buy at a reasonable price and would have done an overhaul of the squad in the summer. And buy English players if people thought it was absolutely necessary.
I can't believe I have to defend myself here, that everyone thinks I'm being unreasonable for stating my opinion that it wasn't a 38 million well spent...the game's gone mad. Arsenal got Chamakh for free, ManU got Hernandez for 7 million (who is twice the player as Carroll IMO), and Liverpool buys Carroll for 38 and everyone thinks it's a great deal...what do you guys think of the Van Der Vaart and Ozil signings? You must think they were the signings of the century.
I dont think anyone would say "Carroll was not overpriced". But to say he would flop is a bit idiotic. Player's performance should never be judged on the transfer price. It should be judged on what the player is capable of and what he has achieved.
Liverpool fans are positive on this signing as they are excited about new era. Carroll is not worth the money, but he has potential to become excellent player. If he can spend rest of his career at Liverpool and bang in 20 odd goals every season, then it is the money well spent.
Chanakh was signed for free, but did you ever thought about signing on fee the player would be getting when they are free agents?
VDV was dead wood at Madird and club were desperate to offload him, so only the price.
Ozil had one year left and Bremen would have lost him for nothing. You cant compare those transfers to Carroll as Newcastle were reluctant to sell their best player and when you try to lure club's best player, you should pay over the odds.
It is really simple. Carroll was overpriced but his performance should not be judged with the amount Liverpool payed.
We did overpay, but we hardly had time to negotiate..
dont see the need for smarmy last sentence ( not hernandez isnt twice the player carroll, much as i like to say he is), Van der Vaart and Ozil are not even comparable transfers (sunilvk7 covers that point) have you ever considers you're having to defend it yourself because your argument might be flimsy?
Liverpool are clearly happy with the money they spent especially as both deal were effectively financed by the sales of torres and babal. you tried to agure he could flop without even seeing him play for liverpool. you then based it on the fact that he might not fit in the 4-5-1 as well as suarez, even though they will play 4-4-2, then you argue that they should based round gerrard even though not dalglish's philosophy to base it round a certain player, and Gerrard is clearly capable of playing well at MC for liverpool
All this is addition to what ive said before and i dont want to repeat myself so im gonna leave it at that,we 're going round in circles
I didn't say Carroll would flop I just said that I would have spent the money in a different way. I would have waited until the summer, and bought him for half the price, or I would have spent the money on other players. It's a huge risk to spend that much on one player. I brought up the VDV, Ozil, Chamakh, and Hernandez transfers to show that you can get good players for cheap. In fact, all of those players combined were much less than Carroll, and I would take all four of them together instead of Carroll (I would take any of them individually over Carroll except for Chamakh, although arguably he is more proven). So as I have stated over and over again, had they waited until the summer, and used the Torres/Babel money and whatever the owners wanted to invest in rebuilding the whole quad, things would have been much better.
People say that they were forced into paying that much for Carroll because they had no time to negotiate but I already addressed that. It's simply not true. That could have and should have waited until the summer, when they could have bought him for half the price, or they could have bought anyone else in the world. It's not like they absolutely needed Carroll this season because they won't be qualifying for the Champions League. And Carroll came injured anyway!
You can argue that the money could not have been better spent but it's not like Ferguson or Wenger ever make buys like this...if they were in charge they would have rather not spent the money at all. If you guys think it's unreasonable for me to even suggest that they could have spent that 38 million better (and this includes the option of waiting until the summer and buying him for half the price) than I don't know what the world is coming to.
And signing of the century: I would say Vieira. Wasn't he like 3 million quid or something?
People say that they were forced into paying that much for Carroll because they had no time to negotiate but I already addressed that. It's simply not true. That could have and should have waited until the summer, when they could have bought him for half the price, or they could have bought anyone else in the world. It's not like they absolutely needed Carroll this season because they won't be qualifying for the Champions League. And Carroll came injured anyway!
You can argue that the money could not have been better spent but it's not like Ferguson or Wenger ever make buys like this...if they were in charge they would have rather not spent the money at all. If you guys think it's unreasonable for me to even suggest that they could have spent that 38 million better (and this includes the option of waiting until the summer and buying him for half the price) than I don't know what the world is coming to.
And signing of the century: I would say Vieira. Wasn't he like 3 million quid or something?
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talk about side stepping the points you make. ozil and van der vaart are not comparable, for reasons already said by sunilvk7, you have no idea what could have happened in the summer, thats pure speculation, bearing in mid the two other targets they wanted, Gomez and Llorente, would have cost MORE than Carroll.
Actually you did try to argue that he wouldnt be a success. They didnt have to buy carrol, they wanted to. Was he expensive, of course he was, its he worth it? only time will tell. Ferguson has made some huge buys, the last one was berbatov. I stick to my original point.
I brought up Ozil and VDV just to emphasize the fact that good players can be bought for cheap. If they would have waited til summer, they certainly could have gotten Carroll for much cheaper (he would just tell Newcastle he wanted to leave and the price would have gone down to the 15-20 million everyone thought he was worth), or they could have gotten another target. Gomez and Llorente would have been expensive, though I doubt 38 million, but anyway they could have found a good player for much cheaper certainly. They could have found a good target man or a bargain target man for much cheaper. I mean, Dzeko was 27 million. He's a proven target man. So there's just no way that Carroll is worth 38. Not even close. So if they wanted the 4-4-2 with Suarez plus a target man, they could have spent some money on a target man that would have been in the same league as Carroll and then shored up the rest of the squad. That's definitely what I would have done with the money.
I never did say he was going to be a failure, I just said that I didn't think it was a good use of the money and that if played in a 4-5-1 he wouldn't be the ideal Torres replacement.
Ferguson has made some big buys, but they are almost always great ones. He wouldn't spend the money if it could be much better spent.
And I would way, way, way rather have Javier Hernandez than Carroll in my team, and I think he has more potential. And I'm not taking into consideration the fact that he was a fraction of the cost.
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