England Thread

[Mike.]

Funny, that is our plan as well. But hey you can always counter our counters!

Indeed, whoever gets the first goal will have the big advantage, so I can see it being a very cagey start.

 

[Tyton]

Indeed, whoever gets the first goal will have the big advantage, so I can see it being a very cagey start.

Its our thing to sit on every opponent for 10-15 minutes, after that it will definitely get cagey. Both teams since forever had this natural gung-ho style that's terrified of possession but excels at counter, it's just that you're a bit better at it. We didn't have one guy who can distribute the ball properly in my lifetime, but we always have some flashy wingers and multi-purpose mids.

 

[ajt09]

Steven Gerrard has rejected Patrick Viera's claim that young English players lack the pride and hunger to represent their country and pointed to a new-found strength in depth within the national set-up which is serving to "raise performances" under Roy Hodgson. Vieira, now Manchester City's football development executive, had pointed to a lack of coaching quality as one explanation for why England "don't produce enough talent" and suggested young players "are not as proud as they used to be", citing the number of them who withdraw from international duty through injury between the ages of 16 and 21. Yet Gerrard, who will gain his 99th cap in evening's awkward World Cup qualifier against Poland insisted he has seen no evidence to back up the Frenchman's assertion.

"It surprised me to read that and the impression I get, certainly from seeing the young players every day at Liverpool, is that they're desperate to get into this set-up," said the England captain. "You can see in their faces that when they're left out, they're disappointed. But what he said didn't annoy me because I don't really care what Patrick Vieira says. I know the young players are hungry."

The Liverpool midfielder has drawn encouragement from the emergence of a young generation of players now competing for places in the England side. "Maybe, in the past, there weren't youngsters coming through to challenge but the proof's there now," he said. "The likes of Tom Cleverley and Danny Welbeck are pushing for regular starts in this team, and we, as senior players, are aware of that. It keeps everyone on their toes and will raise performances, individually and collectively. I didn't really know it would happen like this after the Euros, when we were looking to move forward and strengthen. It's important not to get carried away with these youngsters – there's a long way to go. But there's talent there to give us real optimism for the future."

The England manager, Roy Hodgson, is expected to pick Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain – another granted an opportunity under his management – against the Poles, with Cleverley a regular since the summer and Welbeck competing with Jermain Defoe to start at Warsaw's national stadium. The experienced Tottenham Hotspur striker spent a prolonged period of Monday night's training session in the arena working with Wayne Rooney, suggesting he could return to the side having sat out Friday's thrashing of San Marino.

Rooney will be key against the Poles, with the England coach Gary Neville challenging the Manchester United striker to continue improving his game, with Ryan Giggs and Paul Scholes to serve as inspiration. "At the age of 26 you always have to think that there's more to come," said Neville. "You can't get to the age of 26 and think: 'My best years have gone.' He has to now challenge himself. That's the challenge that always exists when you play for United and England, at the highest level of football: to keep reinventing yourself. He's a wonderful player: someone who's at his best when he's like the street kid, fighting for every ball – and with the passion to win. We need to see Wayne Rooney improve, and Wayne Rooney needs to see himself improve. The last couple of weeks, coming back from injury, I've seen a lean, fit, hungry Wayne Rooney. He has got a huge challenge around him just to maintain his position at United but he looks like he is really up for it."

Hodgson intends to select the Arsenal right-back Carl Jenkinson for next month's friendly against Sweden after receiving assurances from the 20-year-old that he wishes to commit his future to England rather than Finland. The youngster, whose mother is a Finn, has represented both countries at youth level but trained with the England seniors at London Colney on Sunday. He has yet to receive clearance from Fifa to play for England, though the FA will now secure that paperwork.

"He didn't take a lot of convincing," said Hodgson. "Carl was in my thoughts anyway, and we'd invited him to train with us knowing full well he couldn't take part in this game. But it gave me the opportunity to sit him down and ask him the question. I don't want to trick him to play for England with a few minutes in a game to 'block' him. But he had to make a decision because we're very interested in him, even if the competition is tougher to get him into the England team rather than the Finland team. He made it very clear he wanted to play for us."

Steven Gerrard defends the desire of England's new generation | Football | The Guardian

Well done Viera for winning bullshit of the week award. Of all the people to speak utter **** I didn't think it would be him. No pride? No hunger? No desire? Shut your mouth and close the door on the way out you mug. And not producing talent? I'm sure SAF, Moyes et al would love to prove you wrong you absolute ****.

Chamberlain, Rodwell, Bertrand, Cleverly, Jones, Smalling, Shelvey.....need I go on?

 

[GodCubed]

Well done Viera for winning bullshit of the week award. Of all the people to speak utter **** I didn't think it would be him. No pride? No hunger? No desire? Shut your mouth and close the door on the way out you mug. And not producing talent? I'm sure SAF, Moyes et al would love to prove you wrong you absolute ****.

Chamberlain, Rodwell, Bertrand, Cleverly, Jones, Smalling, Shelvey.....need I go on?

How about De Gea, Jordi Amat, Martin Montoya, Deulofeu, Romeu, Sarabia, Isco, Illarramendi, Inigo Martinez, Cristian Tello, Alvaro Morata and Muniain. I know which group I'd rather have.

Or perhaps Baumann, Holtby, Leitner, Gundogan, Mlapa, Beister, Ter Stegen, Draxler, both Kroos, Gotze, Lasogga, Schurrle, Reus, Muller and Hummels?

Or even Borini, Balotelli, Fiorillo, Immobile, Paloschi, Santon, Destro, De Sciglio, Verratti, El Shaarawy, Perin, Crisetig, Poli, Insigne, Fabbrini and Gabbiadini?

Feel free to go on. What Vieira said was correct, even if he might have said it in the wrong way. Our grass roots and youth training is light years behind continental Europe's, if only because we value size over skill at every age level.

 

[Mike.]

Think you both make valid points. You cannot argue with what he says about the number of quality youth coming from the ranks. However Ajt is right to give him both barrels about him questioning their hunger and desire. Its one of the strengths of our few good young players, all are level headed, and looking to push through, and hit the top. In some ways they could teach some of the more senior players a thing or two.

 

[Tyton]

There's a good reason why any homegrown talent who can kick the ball in somewhat straight line is drowning in money before even having facial hair.

 

[GodCubed]

Think you both make valid points. You cannot argue with what he says about the number of quality youth coming from the ranks. However Ajt is right to give him both barrels about him questioning their hunger and desire. Its one of the strengths of our few good young players, all are level headed, and looking to push through, and hit the top. In some ways they could teach some of the more senior players a thing or two.

I still think Vieira's right, but he's wrong to single out English players about it. When he was a young player, playing for your country was the biggest honour you could receive. Now... it's different. I think Vieira sees these youngsters pulling out to continue their club careers and is exasperated by it. It's not just English youngsters, but he was asked in regards to English youngsters and answered as such. English youth have a good attitude relative to some other nations' - maybe, we don't really know - but not compared to back when Vieira was young and ajt was entering old age.

 

[Jake]

How about De Gea, Jordi Amat, Martin Montoya, Deulofeu, Romeu, Sarabia, Isco, Illarramendi, Inigo Martinez, Cristian Tello, Alvaro Morata and Muniain. I know which group I'd rather have.

Or perhaps Baumann, Holtby, Leitner, Gundogan, Mlapa, Beister, Ter Stegen, Draxler, both Kroos, Gotze, Lasogga, Schurrle, Reus, Muller and Hummels?

Or even Borini, Balotelli, Fiorillo, Immobile, Paloschi, Santon, Destro, De Sciglio, Verratti, El Shaarawy, Perin, Crisetig, Poli, Insigne, Fabbrini and Gabbiadini?

Feel free to go on. What Vieira said was correct, even if he might have said it in the wrong way. Our grass roots and youth training is light years behind continental Europe's, if only because we value size over skill at every age level.

Would def rather be a Spain fan right now. You missed: Cuenca, Thiago, Planas, Camacho, Muniesa, Fontas, Callejon, Bojan and Jeffren.

 

[Athe~]

You missed: Cuenca, Thiago, Planas, Camacho, Muniesa, Fontas, Callejon, Bojan and Jeffren.

Jeffren and Bojan were both overhyped IMO, and one could say they failed to live up to that. Still young though. That said I'd definitely add Markel Susaeta, Oscar de Marcos and Ander Herrera to the mix, if only for the passion they show, and Oliver and Saul from Atlético Madrid, both great up-and-coming talents. Borja Bastón and Paco Alcacer along with Rodrigo are also promising young forwards that could definitely make the list. I defo agree with you though, Spain's current batch of players is way, way better than yours.

Or perhaps Baumann, Holtby, Leitner, Gundogan, Mlapa, Beister, Ter Stegen, Draxler, both Kroos, Gotze, Lasogga, Schurrle, Reus, Muller and Hummels?

Both Benders, Herrmann, Rode, Jung, Rudy, Leno, Jantschke, maybe even Nils Petersen. And that's without mentioning the ones that ended up playing for Turkey or the US.

Or even Borini, Balotelli, Fiorillo, Immobile, Paloschi, Santon, Destro, De Sciglio, Verratti, El Shaarawy, Perin, Crisetig, Poli, Insigne, Fabbrini and Gabbiadini?

Jacopo Sala, Andrea Bertolacci, Samuele Longo, Marco Capuano... You know England's ****** up when even Italy has a decent batch of young players pushing for a first-team spot.

Feel free to go on.

van Rhijn, Martins Indi, Clasie, Narsingh, Willems, de Vrij, Bruma, Maher, Wijnaldum(s), Anita, Fer, de Jong (x2), John, Dost, Bacuna, Mulder (no Scully), Aké (okay, maybe too young to judge)...

Lukaku, Benteke, Courtois, de Bruyne, Hazard, Vossen, Witsel, Alderweireld, Chadli, Boyata...

What Vieira said was correct, even if he might have said it in the wrong way. Our grass roots and youth training is light years behind continental Europe's, if only because we value size over skill at every age level.

Indeed. You have a large population, a long (the longest...) tradition of playing football and the popularity the sport has among the young, it really makes you wonder what's wrong. I agree with ajt regarding Moyes and SAF probably disagreen with Vieira, and they'd be right to do so, but I don't think there's more than a handful academies in England that regularly produce home-grown talent, and even when (if) they do I don't think many of those are potentially world class players, whereas Holland, for instance, with a much smaller population has produced talented players on a regular basis, with many of them going on to be considered world class.

 

[Mike.]

Jeffren and Bojan were both overhyped IMO, and one could say they failed to live up to that. Still young though. That said I'd definitely add Markel Susaeta, Oscar de Marcos and Ander Herrera to the mix, if only for the passion they show, and Oliver and Saul from Atlético Madrid, both great up-and-coming talents. Borja Bastón and Paco Alcacer along with Rodrigo are also promising young forwards that could definitely make the list. I defo agree with you though, Spain's current batch of players is way, way better than yours.



Both Benders, Herrmann, Rode, Jung, Rudy, Leno, Jantschke, maybe even Nils Petersen. And that's without mentioning the ones that ended up playing for Turkey or the US.



Jacopo Sala, Andrea Bertolacci, Samuele Longo, Marco Capuano... You know England's ****** up when even Italy has a decent batch of young players pushing for a first-team spot.



van Rhijn, Martins Indi, Clasie, Narsingh, Willems, de Vrij, Bruma, Maher, Wijnaldum(s), Anita, Fer, de Jong (x2), John, Dost, Bacuna, Mulder (no Scully), Aké (okay, maybe too young to judge)...

Lukaku, Benteke, Courtois, de Bruyne, Hazard, Vossen, Witsel, Alderweireld, Chadli, Boyata...



Indeed. You have a large population, a long (the longest...) tradition of playing football and the popularity the sport has among the young, it really makes you wonder what's wrong. I agree with ajt regarding Moyes and SAF probably disagreen with Vieira, and they'd be right to do so, but I don't think there's more than a handful academies in England that regularly produce home-grown talent, and even when (if) they do I don't think many of those are potentially world class players, whereas Holland, for instance, with a much smaller population has produced talented players on a regular basis, with many of them going on to be considered world class.

Holland havent produced at their level for some time, indeed its one of the big debates going on about how to restructure and get back to what they do best.


Looking at some of the names being put forward from outside Germany Spain Italy, England arent exactly doing that bad, though we definitely be doing a lot more.

Jones, Smalling, Walker, Caulker, Chamberlain, Wilshere, Cleverley, Welbeck, Bertrand, Rodwell, Clyne, Sterling, Zaha, Powell, Shelvey, Gibbs, Jenkinson,

The issue is that we should be producing this regularly, not just seeing this as a very good time.

I would certainly question his point on the desire and hunger of the players i've mentioned, many of them could teach the older players a thing or two.

 

[ajt09]

Looking back I think I could've worded it better. But that's what happens when I get annoyed lol

The grass roots situation-absolute train reck and it'll take a very long time to recover. And yes we are well behind with our training facilities-though I hope the new world class one at St George's Park will be the first of a few. But this sort of thing should not have been allowed to happen. The FA have been so fixated with making money, and making the EPL a world brand name they've absolutely screwed over everything else and left it to rot, along with unknown talent that could have been out there.

The FA have more than enough money to improve the situation and to spread it out sensibly but still they don't. And it's obvious it's going to stagnate even longer and longer, then it's obvious the rot will spread higher up the chain. What they fail to realise is if we had never have had grass roots, we would never have had the foundations of what we have now. And now all we see is historical clubs collapsing, lower structures disentigrating and innocent fans suffering. Granted some clubs have been badly mismanaged (like Darlington for example) by boards, but at the same time the methods for allowing takeovers should have been much stricter.

I would like to think that in the next few years we'll close the gap with other countries like Spain, Italy etc but I just do not see it in the short to medium term. Damage like this takes a **** of a long time to repair. So by the looks of things it's down to clubs like Man City/Utd, Everton etc to keep producing internal quality players because of the lack of facilites. But even that can only go on for so long

 

[Athe~]

Holland havent produced at their level for some time, indeed its one of the big debates going on about how to restructure and get back to what they do best.

That's debatable, there's maybe a 4-5 year gap but Huntelaar, RVP, VdV, Sneijder and Robben, for instance, are all top players, and even between them and the "new" batch you can find the likes of Afellay, so I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss them. They were second in the last WC after all...

 

[Mike.]

That's debatable, there's maybe a 4-5 year gap but Huntelaar, RVP, VdV, Sneijder and Robben, for instance, are all top players, and even between them and the "new" batch you can find the likes of Afellay, so I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss them. They were second in the last WC after all...

But that was less down to the new batch and more down to said players from 4-5 years ago. And thats exactly the issue going on in Ajax. You might say its debatable, but the Dutch have already called it an issue, hence the current push to restructuring, led by Cruyff (who else?). They feel there shouldn't be that gap, that they havent had any like that, the big question they are asking thenselves is where are the 24 year old Robbens and Van der Vaarts of the side, the best of that is probably Strootmann and Afellay, and they are supposed to be among the best in the world at developing youth.

 

[zzeezzy]

That's easily our best team, I'd say.

Lennon definitely deserves the place in the starting line up if it is down to current form, he has been fantastic for Spurs so far this season.

Oh and I might of gone a little bit O.T.T with Pisczek but he is definitely up there with the best Right Back's in my humble opinion. He is one of my favourite Right Back's to watch, would be great if Walker started but it probably won't happen as Hodgson seems to have a fixation with Johnson and Milner. Is Johnson out injured or something I have missed?

 

[Athe~]

the big question they are asking thenselves is where are the 24 year old Robbens and Van der Vaarts of the side, the best of that is probably Strootmann and Afellay

Eljero Elia? You could probably throw vdW into the mix, and maybe, on a good day, Babel, who's been pretty good since going back to Ajax. A 4 year gap may be an issue to them, but when you consider England haven't had a "new Scholes" (just using him as an example) for over a decade, you can easily see that the dutch are light years ahead of you.

 

[Joel`]

Eljero Elia? You could probably throw vdW into the mix, and maybe, on a good day, Babel, who's been pretty good since going back to Ajax. A 4 year gap may be an issue to them, but when you consider England haven't had a "new Scholes" (just using him as an example) for over a decade, you can easily see that the dutch are light years ahead of you.

England barely even had the original Scholes.

 

[Athe~]

Oh and I might of gone a little bit O.T.T with Pisczek

Not really, IMO there's Dani Alves, who's the RB right now, and then comes Piszczek. Cracking player.

 

[Mike.]

Eljero Elia? You could probably throw vdW into the mix, and maybe, on a good day, Babel, who's been pretty good since going back to Ajax. A 4 year gap may be an issue to them, but when you consider England haven't had a "new Scholes" (just using him as an example) for over a decade, you can easily see that the dutch are light years ahead of you.

And that still doesn't change that the dutch aren't where they want to be and they haven't produced at their level for some time, hence my original statement. Nor did i dispute then number England need to produce.

England didn't even really produce Scholes, and there in lies the problem. The players are generated by certain clubs, and there is no national collectivisim on how to bring players forward. Thus its left up to the few forward thinking managers and coaches scattered round the country, like SAF, Moyes, Gradi, Carr, Eastick among others.

 

[Vanjagl]

But that was less down to the new batch and more down to said players from 4-5 years ago. And thats exactly the issue going on in Ajax. You might say its debatable, but the Dutch have already called it an issue, hence the current push to restructuring, led by Cruyff (who else?). They feel there shouldn't be that gap, that they havent had any like that, the big question they are asking thenselves is where are the 24 year old Robbens and Van der Vaarts of the side, the best of that is probably Strootmann and Afellay, and they are supposed to be among the best in the world at developing youth.

There are some promising players. De Jongs, VdW, Elia, RvW are all in right age for next WC.

 

[Joel`]

Hart; Johnson, Jagielka, Lescott, Cole; Milner, Gerrard, Carrick, Cleverley; Rooney, Defoe.

Yawn. How uninspiring.