Manchester United Vs Manchester City | 23rd Oct | Old Trafford

[Mike.]

In City's formation last season there wasn't much of a CM role available and when he did play there he ended up playing too deep.

I thought his best position was CAM/RAM personally, either way he does seem to be more advanced this season and the way hes moving around and coming inside I'd say he's been given more freedoms.

This is how we should utilise him for England, a perfect balance for the left, which is much more attacking under Young and Cole/Baines

Very disappointed in the wide players, they didnt drift inside enough at all. As we dicussed before i'd have thought that would be the first thing to do, in pinning back the wide players and full backs.

 

[JP Woody]

If your a Manchester United fan upset or struggling to cope with the heavy defeat to Manchester City you can call the United helpline on 0161 616161.

that is all

 

[JonoMUFC]

If your a Manchester United fan upset or struggling to cope with the heavy defeat to Manchester City you can call the United helpline on 0161 616161.

that is all

So so cruel JP! Why must you hurt us?

 

[Mike.]

This game, and the few before it pointed out one thing though, we should have bought Sneidjer. Not because cleverly isnt good enough, but because after Cleverley (who we have missed)there isnt really anyone creative through the middle, Leaving us attacking through the flanks only, you need to have the balance throughout the side. Otherwise you make yourself obvious, which we did

 

[Billy]

Cleverley has looked good thus far, and I do personally think he's your most creative CM, but I think he's only played what, 5 matches or so in a United shirt?

I certainly wouldn't be basing any transfers around him, that's for sure.

 

[sunilvk7]

This game, and the few before it pointed out one thing though, we should have bought Sneidjer. Not because cleverly isnt good enough, but because after Cleverley (who we have missed)there isnt really anyone creative through the middle, Leaving us attacking through the flanks only, you need to have the balance throughout the side. Otherwise you make yourself obvious, which we did

If anything it shows we should have signed a De Rossi type of player. Sneijder wouldn't have stopped opponents taking 20 shots at our goal and he is not even a CM. We are very good in final third with Rooney, Welbeck, Nani, Young. We need someone who can shield the defense.

 

[Mike.]

Cleverley has looked good thus far, and I do personally think he's your most creative CM, but I think he's only played what, 5 matches or so in a United shirt?

I certainly wouldn't be basing any transfers around him, that's for sure.

It's not Cleverley per se, but lack of an option after Cleverley. I use Sneidjer as a worked example because we were strongly chasing him. But we dont have an option after him, which is ok for maybe 80 percent of our games, but will cost us in the rest

 

[Mike.]

If anything it shows we should have signed a De Rossi type of player. Sneijder wouldn't have stopped opponents taking 20 shots at our goal and he is not even a CM. We are very good in final third with Rooney, Welbeck, Nani, Young. We need someone who can shield the defense.

You can argue in both directions we do not create enough through the middle, or do we shield enough, we get stuck halfway between the two, its why you often find Rooney so deep when we are struggling. He tries to make himself the fulcrum in the midfield.

Sneidjer is a CM, as much a CM as Cleverley

 

[The Advanced Playmaker]

Ramires wouldn't have been a bad shout for United, but he's more attacking then defensive. Someone like Sergi Busquets, Javier Mascherano or Nigel De Jong would be good as you don't really have a natural holding midfield. Sure, Fletcher is defensive, but he's not brilliant at dropping back at helping the defence - not denying the fact that he has brilliant work rate, teamwork and tackling skills, though.

I think you could try playing Phil Jones as anchor man to see how that works out, but it would be beneficial for you to get someone like Busquets (no, not a diver, an anchoring midfielder). I personally would have got Jeremy Toulalan from Olympique Lyonnais (Lyon) as he is still fairly young, proven and cheap (he went to Malaga fairly cheaply, he would be around 3/4 times less than De Rossi in terms of transfer fee).

 

[Mike.]

Ramires wouldn't have been a bad shout for United, but he's more attacking then defensive. Someone like Sergi Busquets, Javier Mascherano or Nigel De Jong would be good as you don't really have a natural holding midfield. Sure, Fletcher is defensive, but he's not brilliant at dropping back at helping the defence - not denying the fact that he has brilliant work rate, teamwork and tackling skills, though.

I think you could try playing Phil Jones as anchor man to see how that works out, but it would be beneficial for you to get someone like Busquets (no, not a diver, an anchoring midfielder). I personally would have got Jeremy Toulalan from Olympique Lyonnais (Lyon) as he is still fairly young, proven and cheap (he went to Malaga fairly cheaply, he would be around 3/4 times less than De Rossi in terms of transfer fee).

Fletcher actually plays quite high up the pitch. Tactically we should be asking him to sit deeper and break forwards less often.

Also the wingers need to drift inside much more if they are getting no joy with crosses. We didnt do that at all

Its hard to shut United down on the flanks, but once you do, we dont offer much else without a creative CM

 

[sunilvk7]

You can argue in both directions we do not create enough through the middle, or do we shield enough, we get stuck halfway between the two, its why you often find Rooney so deep when we are struggling. He tries to make himself the fulcrum in the midfield.

Sneidjer is a CM, as much a CM as Cleverley

Read his interview few days back. He said he sees himself as an attacker not a midfielder. He talked to Gasp about it but Gasp was stubborn not to use him there. He wants to play as close as possible to goal. Cleverley is a proper CM though. Sneijder is a #10.

Tbf, we created chances from the center when Cleverley and Anderson played together, we need a midfielder who can shield defense so that other CMs can make those runs to the box like Scholes and Keane.

With Rooney, its his natural instinct to drop deeper no matter what. We need to re think our strategy tbf. 2 in the middle is getting to much for Anderson in last few games.

 

[thorton]

United really do miss Cleverly tbh.
First few games with him in, we were fluid, creating chances at will and just a better team.
Past couple of games we have been struggling to find chances. Just look at the Liverpool game.

i find it amazing how united fans are saying they miss cleverley? he hasnt even been at your club the last three seasons.

 

[The Advanced Playmaker]

Fletcher actually plays quite high up the pitch. Tactically we should be asking him to sit deeper and break forwards less often.

Also the wingers need to drift inside much more if they are getting no joy with crosses. We didnt do that at all

Its hard to shut United down on the flanks, but once you do, we dont offer much else without a creative CM

True, but with quality fullbacks, some teams could stop you from attacking from the wings. I think a defensively stable team like Fulham might be able to - Damien Duff and Carlos Salcido double up on Nani and Clint Dempsey and Aaron Hughes double up on Ashley Young. You just need some defensive wingers and good fullbacks to be honest, in fact I think Spurs could (Benoit Assou-Ekotto and Gareth Bale on the left, Vedran Corluka/Younes Kaboul and Kyle Walker on the right). But yeah, United need some more options, as they are currently very strong on the flanks but not-so-good in the middle.

 

[mark 19 times]

i find it amazing how united fans are saying they miss cleverley? he hasnt even been at your club the last three seasons.

We miss cleverley this year, in previous years we had a certain Mr Scholes

 

[Mike.]

i find it amazing how united fans are saying they miss cleverley? he hasnt even been at your club the last three seasons.

its not cleveley but what he brings, before it was scholes

 

[Mike.]

Read his interview few days back. He said he sees himself as an attacker not a midfielder. He talked to Gasp about it but Gasp was stubborn not to use him there. He wants to play as close as possible to goal. Cleverley is a proper CM though. Sneijder is a #10.

Tbf, we created chances from the center when Cleverley and Anderson played together, we need a midfielder who can shield defense so that other CMs can make those runs to the box like Scholes and Keane.

With Rooney, its his natural instinct to drop deeper no matter what. We need to re think our strategy tbf. 2 in the middle is getting to much for Anderson in last few games.

There is dropping deep, and then there is playing centre mid. which is what happens when he isnt gettin on the ball.

Thats my thing with Cleverley, he allows us to attack through the middle, much like scholes did. We are awesome down the flank, but if you can stop them (and to be fair most cant) and we dont have that player, we dont offer too much

We should definitely be asking fletcher to do less. Just shield the back 4

 

[Jamie.]

Spot on Mike, that's something I have noticed about United for the past year or so. The lack of attacking intent down the middle, even in Ronaldo's day the majority of United flair/counter attacking came down the flanks. I'd say SAF bought Anderson to fix that problem, the only problem with Anderson is he is still pretty raw and doesn't quite seem to know if he's a deep playmaker or a box to box with a license.

I do think there is one thing, just one, missing to make this United team a great team and even worthy challengers of Barce and that is someone in the middle of midfield who can beat a man and cut open a defence.

As much as we all enjoy Rooney dropping deep and pinging 40 yard passes to the wing, we'd probably all agree you want Rooney further up the pitch to actually get on the end of chances. That's the only part of this United team that worries me and if they had the Sneijder/Modric/Iniesta/Wilshere/M'Villa type I would feel more confident tipping them for the title.

Saying that, no one really knows yet exactly how good Cleverley is yet so only time will tell whether they should have signed that midfielder last summer. With Carrick out of form the United central midfield does lack a little bit in the passing area.

 

[GodCubed]

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City’s new fluidity…

Manchester City played much of last season in a clearly-defined 4-2-3-1, with Yaya Toure playing just off a forward of choice and Nigel De Jong and Gareth Barry holding. With Toure and De Jong both midfielders who made their name in the defensive role, and Barry recently reinvented into a deep-lying holder, the interpretation of the formation was fairly defensive.

This year, however, with the introduction of Sergio Aguero, City have moved into a much harder to define formation. It could be described as a 4-4-2, but perhaps a 4-2-3-1 or even a 4-2-2-2 would be more accurate. Sergio Aguero drops off the front in order to receive the ball in space, and David Silva and (in this case) James Milner swap around with him behind the striker. This lends City new unpredictability and flair, and makes them far harder to defend against. The removal of one of the three defensive midfielders from last season’s regulars also improves City on the ball, giving them more zip and flair in attack.


…and United’s lack of it

On the other hand, Manchester United started this season with a whole new outlook. Their 4-2-3-1/4-4-2ish formation gave four versatile attackers room to switch and drift. This fluidity made them unpredictable and offered their greatest threat, Wayne Rooney, an escape route from close marking.

In this match, however, things were disappointingly stolid. Ashley Young and Nani kept mostly to their flanks, pressed up against their opposing full-backs, and Rooney and Danny Welbeck stayed central and struggled to find space to work in. In direct contrast to City, United’s players all seemed to have specific roles to perform, and when one was prevented from performing his, they didn’t seem to have the licence to improvise.


United’s unbalanced midfield pairing

United’s central midfield pairings for the majority of last season were odd, but extremely successful. In modern general football terms, a team usually has at least one pure destroyer, someone who breaks up opposition attacks and wins the ball back for his team. Such a defensive anchor can be invaluable when a side is under pressure, and plays an important role for any team wishing to play on the counter. Last season, United had no players whatsoever who could realistically be termed ‘pure destroyers’. Darren Fletcher perhaps has the attributes for it, but Alex Ferguson prefers playing him as a box-to-box player, nominally defensive but by no means an anchor man.

United’s midfield partnership last season, then, was not the traditional passer/creator axis. Rather, they ended up with a more unusual ‘passer/runner’ pairing. Whilst this is hardly new – Andrea Pirlo (passer) and Gennaro Gattuso (runner) were perhaps the greatest exponents of it before the introduction of Massimo Ambrosini in place of the more attacking Clarence Seedorf turned their holding axis into a trio – it takes a more rounded pair of footballers to pull off. The passer is the more static of the two, receiving the ball and being creative with its distribution to the flanks and to the front players. The runner both protects the defence, and in the attack phase uses his energy to link with the attacking band of four. Both midfielders need to be at least accomplished in their defensive skills, particularly positionally. It was their excellent positioning and reading of the game that allowed Michael Carrick and Anderson, two players who aren’t known for their tackling ability, to successfully shield their defence.

In this game, Anderson (runner) was paired with Fletcher (runner) to disastrous consequences. With Rooney subdued by City’s deep-lying midfielders, United were in need of another creative outlet to replace him. Anderson and Fletcher both worked hard, but neither possesses the technique and vision required to unlock a defence from deep. As a result, United’s creativity was stifled.


The value of a workhorse

Park Ji-Sung is possibly the world’s best-known ‘Big game player’. A trusted lieutenant of Ferguson’s, his indomitable spirit and hard work make him invaluable in a tight game, and his ability to play anywhere in midfield makes it easy to slot him into a team when needed. Though he wasn’t fielded this game, City proved they had their very own version of him in their own ranks.

James Milner had arguably his best game in a sky blue shirt. Fielded on the right of the City midfield, he was given just as much license to roam across the field as his left wing counterpart, David Silva. Milner was one of the game’s most dangerous players, providing two assists, but the whole point of fielding him isn’t that he is consistently threatening. When Milner plays, his work rate and energy ensures that he can effectively nullify his direct opponent. In this case, Milner tied down an entire flank by himself on the right, marking his former teammate Young and testing an off-colour Patrice Evra with dribbling.

Silva and Milner were clever in their movement, often both drifting to the same flank in order to work two-on-one situations. In this case, two goals were created after their combination overwhelmed the opposition full-back.


City dominate flanks

With Wayne Rooney being occupied by Toure and Barry and a lack of creativity inherent in the United midfield, the one remaining threat were their wingers. Young and Nani are both tricky, pacey wingers, with Nani in particular a flair player who can make something out of nothing. The way City dealt with them owed fairly little to tactics, however, and a good deal to the excellent games of their full-backs.

Whilst right-back Micah Richards often had Milner tracking Young and Evra to aid him, he won an impressive 8 out of 13 duels by himself, and found time to maraud deep into the United half, bagging himself an assist. Gael Clichy, the City left-back, had an even greater task before him. With Chris Smalling having no direct opponent, the United right-back was able to get forward to try and overload Clichy, but the former Arsenal man coped well. Though his tackling rate was far less impressive than Richards’, he still kept Nani as one of the game’s peripheral figures. Nani ended up with 53 touches, 15 less than his opposite number James Milner.

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Some analysis for you guys. Link.

 

[Jamie.]

Really well written piece Nick, if you're interested in getting your work published (External to your WP blog) let me know and I'll give you a few email addresses of sites that publish pieces and you could probably get a writing slot with them.

I mean it's not going to be ESPN but there's a lot of good quality sites out there. I'll give you the contact info for the editor of the Daisy Cutter if you're interested and you can show him some work and see if he wants to pick you up. Or if that has too much football satire for you, a different league is usually recruiting correspondents. I believe ADL are recruiting a European Football Writer and a few English sub editors so if it sounds like your type of thing let me know and I'll give you the email addresses.

 

[Mike.]

Spot on Mike, that's something I have noticed about United for the past year or so. The lack of attacking intent down the middle, even in Ronaldo's day the majority of United flair/counter attacking came down the flanks. I'd say SAF bought Anderson to fix that problem, the only problem with Anderson is he is still pretty raw and doesn't quite seem to know if he's a deep playmaker or a box to box with a license.

I do think there is one thing, just one, missing to make this United team a great team and even worthy challengers of Barce and that is someone in the middle of midfield who can beat a man and cut open a defence.

As much as we all enjoy Rooney dropping deep and pinging 40 yard passes to the wing, we'd probably all agree you want Rooney further up the pitch to actually get on the end of chances. That's the only part of this United team that worries me and if they had the Sneijder/Modric/Iniesta/Wilshere/M'Villa type I would feel more confident tipping them for the title.

Saying that, no one really knows yet exactly how good Cleverley is yet so only time will tell whether they should have signed that midfielder last summer. With Carrick out of form the United central midfield does lack a little bit in the passing area.

he is box to box with a licence. he should not be doing the dirty work, that should be fletcher. Anderson should be making a nusciance of himself when he tracks back, but the destroyer should be fletcher. But becuase tactically it isnt clear, he isnt clear either.

Cleverley i think will be good enough, but there is no cover for him, worried about this before he got injured, hence why i wanted anotehr signing. Would like to see someone similar in Jan