Post Your Frustations Thread

[rocheyb]

The keep doesnt decide that. The problem is, you've already decided there is nothing you cannot do, its just FM out to get you. Yet it doesnt happen to everyone else?

Mike,

You've missed the point. Liam is saying that in actual real-life football, when your team creates so many clear cut chances but hits the woodwork three/four times per match and consistently comes up against run-of-the-mill goalkeepers who conveniently defy the laws of physics to produce their best performance of the season, the other team is being completely overrun and your are laying siege to their goal, 9-times-out-of-10 you will score and on occasions open the floodgates for a handsome victory. His tactics are clearly working but this game makes an unrealistic allowance for the counter attack smash-and-grab defeat that most good teams will suffer only once or twice a season. Although you could also argue that being so dominant in possession is also rarer in top flight football than FM would have us believe.

I've noticed that come half-time, the opposition players - who are having very little effect on the game and basically just relying on their goalkeeper - nevertheless often have a slightly higher average rating than my players, who have dominated the first 45 minutes and created chance after chance.

I anticipate that you're going to say "train the strikers to shoot more accurately" but I have witnessed my FM teams hit every inch of the woodwork with deadly accuracy. It's just that whacking great 12ft x 8ft hole in between the sticks that they sometimes have trouble with.

You are right insofar that FM is a computer game and there is a way to get the better of it and those resources you listed will help him to work it out - as I have done with some degree of success. But in that respect, the game has more in common with a Rubik's Cube than actual football.

Anyway, that's not why I'm here. My frustration of the day is seeing two of my players setting up to defend a free-kick by standing in single file (?!) thereby reducing their effectiveness by 50%! City did score from this, but Aaron Ramsey had the good grace to be offside:

View attachment 444177

 

[rocheyb]

How frustrating, looks like your tactic works though... Dominated..

Mike,

Wkdsoul's post is a perfect example (you might have to go back to thread page 80 to see his screen grab).

If his Newcastle team has created 37 chances with 18 of them on target - and Millwall's outfield players have been unable to stop them from doing that while creating only one chance themselves - what the **** kind of rating must the Millwall goalkeeper have earned to result in a Millwall average that is 0.26 higher than his team?

It seems that the Millwall players are earning ratings credit for tackles and headers that foiled some attacking moves, without being penalised for the fact that 37 attacks ended in shots on goal and 18 resulted in their goalkeeper being called into action. Meanwhile, the Newcastle players are not receiving much ratings credit for being so dominant or for hitting the target 18 times.

 

[Bladesman1963]

Mike,

You've missed the point. Liam is saying that in actual real-life football, when your team creates so many clear cut chances but hits the woodwork three/four times per match and consistently comes up against run-of-the-mill goalkeepers who conveniently defy the laws of physics to produce their best performance of the season, the other team is being completely overrun and your are laying siege to their goal, 9-times-out-of-10 you will score and on occasions open the floodgates for a handsome victory. His tactics are clearly working but this game makes an unrealistic allowance for the counter attack smash-and-grab defeat that most good teams will suffer only once or twice a season. Although you could also argue that being so dominant in possession is also rarer in top flight football than FM would have us believe.

I've noticed that come half-time, the opposition players - who are having very little effect on the game and basically just relying on their goalkeeper - nevertheless often have a slightly higher average rating than my players, who have dominated the first 45 minutes and created chance after chance.

I anticipate that you're going to say "train the strikers to shoot more accurately" but I have witnessed my FM teams hit every inch of the woodwork with deadly accuracy. It's just that whacking great 12ft x 8ft hole in between the sticks that they sometimes have trouble with.

You are right insofar that FM is a computer game and there is a way to get the better of it and those resources you listed will help him to work it out - as I have done with some degree of success. But in that respect, the game has more in common with a Rubik's Cube than actual football.

Anyway, that's not why I'm here. My frustration of the day is seeing two of my players setting up to defend a free-kick by standing in single file (?!) thereby reducing their effectiveness by 50%! City did score from this, but Aaron Ramsey had the good grace to be offside:

View attachment 443518

Excellent post! Getting picked off on the counter every so often wouldn't matter at all if some of the miriad clear cut chances created were actually taken!

View attachment 444163

I've just finished the 2nd season in my current season and, after promotion from League 1, managed to finish 12th in the Championship. I would have made the play-offs (pointless of course when you're Sheffield United!) but, although I lost just 1 of my last 10 games, only 2 resulted in victories, none of which occurred in the final 7 games (6 draws, 1defeat). All this despite leading in every one of those games! After a couple of matches getting pegged back almost immediately after scoring, when playing control I tried going counter and deeper after going in front. When playing counter I went defensive and deeper. Neither of which had any effect! I used the same tactic, or variations of it, all season, yet this draw-mania only seemed to kick in in the final ten games. After 36 games I had drawn just 7. After 46 I had drawn 14! It can't all be down to losing Harry Maguire through injury, surely!

 

[Bladesman1963]

Oh, and another thing. Why does player 1 ask to go out on loan when the window is closed and there's 1 game left in the season? And why does player 2 ask for more 1st team football after the final game has actually been played??? I obviously agreed to give him a chance in the 1st team, providing he works hard to stay there! Let's see if he comes back to me the middle of summer whilst on holiday and demands a transfer because I didn't keep my promise!

 

[Mike.]

Mike,

Wkdsoul's post is a perfect example (you might have to go back to thread page 80 to see his screen grab).

If his Newcastle team has created 37 chances with 18 of them on target - and Millwall's outfield players have been unable to stop them from doing that while creating only one chance themselves - what the **** kind of rating must the Millwall goalkeeper have earned to result in a Millwall average that is 0.26 higher than his team?

It seems that the Millwall players are earning ratings credit for tackles and headers that foiled some attacking moves, without being penalised for the fact that 37 attacks ended in shots on goal and 18 resulted in their goalkeeper being called into action. Meanwhile, the Newcastle players are not receiving much ratings credit for being so dominant or for hitting the target 18 times.

I know Liams point, I've been here before.

9 of of 10 times you will not score, and win batter the opposition in real life at all.

Anyone know what the CCC conversion rate is in real life?

Answer its not 90%, its about 50%.

In fact the majority of goals scored are not even clear cut chances.

Dont anticipate what I'm going to say, btw. I'd actually like to see top strikers roll the keeper more.

His tactics are not "working" by the way, counter attacks in FM are still incredibly ponderous compared to real life, if you think this is smash and grab now, wait till they finally address them and a counter in FM is as swift as deadly as those you see in real life. A good example would be Liverpool last season. Statistical domination all across the pitch, still not getting the results. Why? Looking past the stats and actually watching their play, it was rushed, volume approached play. Now thats not saying everything about them was wrong, because it wasn't but you have to looking beyond the stats sometimes and watch the play itself. They are an overview, but they dont tell the whole story. You use them as an indicator.

In real life (assuming all is well), statstically you win with more possession 57% of the time, and with more shots on target 71% of the time, This is freakishly universal (give or take a percentage or two) across all levels of football (including womens football). So All things being equal, in an average 60 game season, you can expect to lose/draw upto EIGHTEEN TIMES. You want to know where managers earn their money? Those "18 games".

Re woodwork, you've actually missed the point. The vast majority of those are going to be flying over if woodwork issue dealt with, its actually not as big as issue as people like to make out, partly because they assume they would all be going.

Now you could argue for sure the goalkeeper should be getting a better rating, but that an entirely different issue to debate ( rating are results, no inputs in the ME)

 

[Bladesman1963]

I set two players as end-of-contract transfer targets, so why does my DOF come back and tell me that his attempts have failed due to the two parties being too far apart in their valuation of the player?

 

[rocheyb]

I know Liams point, I've been here before.

9 of of 10 times you will not score, and win batter the opposition in real life at all.

Anyone know what the CCC conversion rate is in real life?

Answer its not 90%, its about 50%.

In fact the majority of goals scored are not even clear cut chances.

Dont anticipate what I'm going to say, btw. I'd actually like to see top strikers roll the keeper more.

His tactics are not "working" by the way, counter attacks in FM are still incredibly ponderous compared to real life, if you think this is smash and grab now, wait till they finally address them and a counter in FM is as swift as deadly as those you see in real life. A good example would be Liverpool last season. Statistical domination all across the pitch, still not getting the results. Why? Looking past the stats and actually watching their play, it was rushed, volume approached play. Now thats not saying everything about them was wrong, because it wasn't but you have to looking beyond the stats sometimes and watch the play itself. They are an overview, but they dont tell the whole story. You use them as an indicator.

In real life (assuming all is well), statstically you win with more possession 57% of the time, and with more shots on target 71% of the time, This is freakishly universal (give or take a percentage or two) across all levels of football (including womens football). So All things being equal, in an average 60 game season, you can expect to lose/draw upto EIGHTEEN TIMES. You want to know where managers earn their money? Those "18 games".

Re woodwork, you've actually missed the point. The vast majority of those are going to be flying over if woodwork issue dealt with, its actually not as big as issue as people like to make out, partly because they assume they would all be going.

Now you could argue for sure the goalkeeper should be getting a better rating, but that an entirely different issue to debate ( rating are results, no inputs in the ME)

Hi Mike,

Thanks for your reply. The 9-times-out-of-10 comment was to say that in most one-sided matches (9 matches out of 10) a team like, let's say, Manchester City will break down the stubborn resistance of a Norwich and score the crucial goal that then either wins the game or opens the floodgates to more goals. I was not referring to the rate of successful shooting chance conversions. And 9/10 is a colloquialism - perhaps it's 7 times or 7.5 times, but the point is that FM14 has it too far the other way.

Liam's tactics are working because his team is consistently overpowering the opposition and getting plenty of shots on target, whether they be clear cut or long range or whatever, while simultaneously denying the opposition anything but for a single successful counter. Assuming that he gets at least 5 CCCs per match, and that your 50% success rate for CCCs is correct, that supports my point in the previous paragraph; Liam would be winning the majority of such matches, with only the occasional upset. To clarify, I'm talking specifically about statistically overwhelmingly one-sided matches such as those that our fellow forumites are posting images about, not all matches against all opposition.

I take your point about watching the matches closely - the improvement in my game has come from watching every substitution, injury, booking, fitness depletion etc like a hawk and exploiting opportunities as and when I can. Against trickier opposition you sometimes have to give counter intuitive instructions like Counter/Rigid/Drop Deeper in order to create the space that you will then exploit on the counter attack. And in some cases, I am finding that players are better suited to their secondary positions (like Jonjo Shelvey as an AM_R rather than AM_C or SS) due to specific attributes that fit into my formation and tactics. A lot has to do with the players' confidence, which I find to be a bit too fragile at times.

I'm not really knocking the game that much - SI have still produced an excellent product. But these complaints are customer feedback which I think identifies that they have a few wrinkles to iron out if they genuinely want this game to be a 'Realistic Football Management Simulation' - that people can actually enjoy playing!

 

[Andras99]

my biggest frustration currently is the inability to edit a post without bugs galore on this forum

but ingame, obi mikel.. i wanted him in my chelsea side and he moaned and moaned all year because real madrid wanted him and i said no as he and essien were my defensive midfielders and i like to rotate, always had a bad morale state no mattr what i tried to do heh.

Same thing happened to me. The difference is the team that tried to buy him: PSG. Unlike most Chelsea fans, i rate Mikel high, and in FM he is great. Had 1 month of unhappiness, but he got over it. He can leave if he wants too when Loftus-Cheek is ready

@rocheyb: 50% conversion rate per CCC is just like flipping a coin. If you flip it 5 times you know you can have heads or tails, but it doesn't mean you can have each at least once. You can have 5 heads (5 goals) or 5 tails ( no goals). Odds don't stack.

 

[GodCubed]

Liam's tactics are working because his team is consistently overpowering the opposition and getting plenty of shots on target, whether they be clear cut or long range or whatever, while simultaneously denying the opposition anything but for a single successful counter. Assuming that he gets at least 5 CCCs per match, and that your 50% success rate for CCCs is correct, that supports my point in the previous paragraph; Liam would be winning the majority of such matches, with only the occasional upset. To clarify, I'm talking specifically about statistically overwhelmingly one-sided matches such as those that our fellow forumites are posting images about, not all matches against all opposition.

To **** in, that's not how it works at all. Remember the 2009/10 Champions League Barca vs Inter game, the one where Barca won 1-0? Where Barca spent all game 'overpowering the opposition', had 15 shots to Inter's 0, denied the opposition any chance of scoring at all? Let me tell you now, it wasn't Guardiola who won the tactical battle there. Hundreds of CCCs does not a good tactic make, not at all.

 

[Newcastledownunder]

My frustration is very much a minor nitpick... Goalkeepers reaching through their nets to pick up a ball from behind the goal from a shot that went wide or something. Very minor, but I get annoyed when the goalie reaches through the net.

 

[No7Lukeee]

My 14 shots on target to Cardiffs 3. I hit the bar 5 times, Their goalkeeper played an absolute ******* blinder to say the least. I lost 2-0

This just sums up my whole experience with this game from the minute I started playing it.

 

[rocheyb]

@GodCubed - "Hundreds of Clear Cut Chances does not a good tactic make…" The sheer nonsensity of that comment is tempered only by the fact that you almost certainly do not exist! Which teams in the Premier League create the most CCCs? The teams who score the most goals. The aim of the game is to score goals. Clear Cut Chances are those chances that are easiest to score. The teams who create the most CCCs score the most goals, win the most games. If you think this is not true, then I question your definitions of a) a Clear Cut Chance, and b) "thinking". Most goals are not 30-yard worldies, which is why it's so impressive when they do occur.

@Andras99 - Odds don't stack. Well observed. But our friend Mike has proposed that on average - that's "on average" - 50% of Clear Cut Chances result in a goal. So, to flog your analogy to its deservedly painful death, if a CCC is a coin, and the aim of the game is to get more HEADS (not Tails) than the opposition, and you have 8 coins while they only have 1… then surely, "on average", you will get more HEADS than them often enough to beat them most of the time.

Some Clear Cut Chances are clearer than others and a well executed counter attack will provide a CCC at the end of it that is Clearer and more Cutting than any other. And that is where those occasional Premier League upset results come from. But I've played in, watched and even managed a team in too many football matches over the years to buy this pseudo-analytic-pigeon-mathematics that some of you are indulging in (which, as I think I have demonstrated in the previous paragraph, doesn't stand up to statistical scrutiny).

As I once helpfully and loudly informed the Swedish international midfielder, Anders Svensson, immediately after a failed attempt at a Fancy Daniel free-kick on the hallowed St Mary's turf, football is a simple game in which you have to "Kick. The. Ball. At. The. Goal. (You Kn*b-Ed!)"… advice which, I'm sure he would be the first to acknowledge, serves him very well to this day.

@Newcastle Down Under - Yes, that is a little annoying. But the crowd animations are really good. I'd like to see a few hi-vis jacket wearing stewards loitering about the place and the occasional strolling police officers, too. I scouted a player by watching a Sampdoria-Atalanta match where the crowd were letting off flares.

 

[LiamOT]

"Hundreds of CCC's don't make a good tactic"..

If that's what the game goes by, I may as well not play it because that's bullshit mate. The whole point of a good attacking tactic is chance creation . Unless your objective is not to lose the game..

So what does make a good tactic then? Soaking up massive amounts of pressure and then scoring goals against the run of play? (e.g the AI).

This 50% of CCC's converted in real life is not shown in the game at all. You can get +4 genuine CCC's per game (seen on Comprehensive highlights that they're actual real chances) which are not converted, only for the AI to go up the other end and score with their first or second shot in the game.

You can also feel when you're about to conceded. Peppering the opposition, save after save. Miss after miss. Woodwork after woodwork. But then all of a sudden the highlights switch to AI, you know you're about to either conceded or get bailed out by your keeper.

Also the wing play in this game is appalling since the last patch. If players beat their man, they run to the byline and then wait for the defender to catch up... Only then they'll just knock it off the defender to win a corner. I mean come on, what is that?

My winger Sanchez Watt beats his man most of the time but refuses to cross immediately after and then just buy a corner off the recovering defender who's just run back to block the patiently waiting Sanchez Watt.

I'm quite annoyed at myself for buying this game before the final patch. I say this every year that I'm not gonna buy until the final patch but I just sucked in.

 

[Mike.]

"Hundreds of CCC's don't make a good tactic"..

If that's what the game goes by, I may as well not play it because that's bullshit mate. The whole point of a good attacking tactic is chance creation . Unless your objective is not to lose the game..

So what does make a good tactic then? Soaking up massive amounts of pressure and then scoring goals against the run of play? (e.g the AI).

This 50% of CCC's converted in real life is not shown in the game at all. You can get +4 genuine CCC's per game (seen on Comprehensive highlights that they're actual real chances) which are not converted, only for the AI to go up the other end and score with their first or second shot in the game.

You can also feel when you're about to conceded. Peppering the opposition, save after save. Miss after miss. Woodwork after woodwork. But then all of a sudden the highlights switch to AI, you know you're about to either conceded or get bailed out by your keeper.

Also the wing play in this game is appalling since the last patch. If players beat their man, they run to the byline and then wait for the defender to catch up... Only then they'll just knock it off the defender to win a corner. I mean come on, what is that?

My winger Sanchez Watt beats his man most of the time but refuses to cross immediately after and then just buy a corner off the recovering defender who's just run back to block the patiently waiting Sanchez Watt.

I'm quite annoyed at myself for buying this game before the final patch. I say this every year that I'm not gonna buy until the final patch but I just sucked in.

You still don't get it. You keep talking about you and the AI as if they have different rules. They don't. Same match engine. An no patch is going to save you from your issues Liam, about being opened up, in fact if they improve counter attacks for the next update, you're going to get hammered. Stop obsessing about stats, start looking at the chances and overall play themselves. Your choice.

 

[Mike.]

RocheyB, cut out the patronising tone of your comments, or just don't post at all.

 

[Mike.]

EPL strikers reliance upon Clear-Cut Chances | Opta Stats Analysis Which team creates & converts the most Clear Cut Chances? | Stats Analysis EPL Opta Stats | Clear-Cut Chances: Hits And Misses This is more for anyone's interest rather than the debate.

 

[Mike.]

"Hundreds of CCC's don't make a good tactic"..

If that's what the game goes by, I may as well not play it because that's bullshit mate. The whole point of a good attacking tactic is chance creation . Unless your objective is not to lose the game..

So what does make a good tactic then? Soaking up massive amounts of pressure and then scoring goals against the run of play? (e.g the AI).

This 50% of CCC's converted in real life is not shown in the game at all. You can get +4 genuine CCC's per game (seen on Comprehensive highlights that they're actual real chances) which are not converted, only for the AI to go up the other end and score with their first or second shot in the game.

You can also feel when you're about to conceded. Peppering the opposition, save after save. Miss after miss. Woodwork after woodwork. But then all of a sudden the highlights switch to AI, you know you're about to either conceded or get bailed out by your keeper.

Also the wing play in this game is appalling since the last patch. If players beat their man, they run to the byline and then wait for the defender to catch up... Only then they'll just knock it off the defender to win a corner. I mean come on, what is that?

My winger Sanchez Watt beats his man most of the time but refuses to cross immediately after and then just buy a corner off the recovering defender who's just run back to block the patiently waiting Sanchez Watt.

I'm quite annoyed at myself for buying this game before the final patch. I say this every year that I'm not gonna buy until the final patch but I just sucked in.

In fact Liam, I remember the conversation we had in august on FM13, and I wasn't the only one on the thread about your Everton side. This isn't a me against you thing here. I don't want you sitting here hating the game, I actually want you to enjoy it, but that also involves being direct about certain things. I wont have much time tonight or tomorrow, but I really am determined to get you enjoying it, AND hopefully playing the style you want. Which is why I keep asking you to post up your set up.

 

[rocheyb]

RocheyB, cut out the patronising tone of your comments, or just don't post at all.

Mike,

It's just humour. I don't think your forum users are so sensitive as to be offended by me and I haven't insulted anybody directly. I will reign it in. But first, let's be honest, here: You're the only one complaining and I have consistently contradicted your arguments on the last few pages of this thread with what I, and I think several other readers, would regard as superior logic, a better applied understanding of your own statistically based claims and with a greater clarity of language (I'm a proofreader with aspirations of copywriting, so that's something of a loaded deck, I'm afraid).

In defending FM14 as it is, you present a version of football that is inconsistent with my experience of the amateur and professional levels of the sport over many years and I think several other readers of this thread would agree with me on that. Fewer, perhaps, would agree with my earlier assertion that FM14 is still an excellent game and an impressive piece of software and as you have correctly pointed out, there are things you can do to get the better of it.

I think Liam's complaints are valid because I recognise them from my own experience of this edition of the game. They highlight flaws that, if eradicated, would lead to an even better FM15. He might well be getting picked off on the counter attack for the opposition's solitary winning goal, but that's a separate phase of play from all those CCCs that his attacking players are failing to convert - in what I motion we should all now refer to as "The Barn-Door-Banjo-Paradox".

 

[Mike.]

Mike,

It's just humour. I don't think your forum users are so sensitive as to be offended by me and I haven't insulted anybody directly. I will reign it in. But first, let's be honest, here: You're the only one complaining and I have consistently contradicted your arguments on the last few pages of this thread with what I, and I think several other readers, would regard as superior logic, a better applied understanding of your own statistically based claims and with a greater clarity of language (I'm a proofreader with aspirations of copywriting, so that's something of a loaded deck, I'm afraid).

In defending FM14 as it is, you present a version of football that is inconsistent with my experience of the amateur and professional levels of the sport over many years and I think several other readers of this thread would agree with me on that. Fewer, perhaps, would agree with my earlier assertion that FM14 is still an excellent game and an impressive piece of software and as you have correctly pointed out, there are things you can do to get the better of it.

I think Liam's complaints are valid because I recognise them from my own experience of this edition of the game. They highlight flaws that, if eradicated, would lead to an even better FM15. He might well be getting picked off on the counter attack for the opposition's solitary winning goal, but that's a separate phase of play from all those CCCs that his attacking players are failing to convert - in what I motion we should all now refer to as "The Barn-Door-Banjo-Paradox".

Forgive me for not realising patronising someone is humour these days. Although lwhether anyone else complains is really quite irrelevant, since they are not moderators and thus someone responsible for the forum.

I have no doubt you have seen it in your game, but that does not make it entirely valid. What about the those whose don't experience it. Do you then rebalance it? Especially when soak tests, dont support it ( they do show there are slightly more shots and goals in game compared to RL, but the ratios are largely on). You're still yet to back up that it happens more in FM than real life, and crucially consider why it happens to some and not others when the match engine is the same all around

The best strikers CCCS convert 48-59%, some will be higher (Cisse) because they purely rely on scoring from such (often unsustainable) situations

while only making up roughly 57% of total goals scored for a side by the most clinical sides.

Although I'm bemused as to why you think this argument is down to defending FM14, in fact I'd much rather you didnt make any assumptions about my stance. There are a number of refinements you could make to the game, he will almost likely encounter the same issues.

You say they highlight flaws, but which ones? What would you actually say would improve this? Apart from the obvious issue with the definition of CCC in game vs real life.

Considering I'm dyslexic, its really not that hard to be a better writer, although it's not really relevant, and its frankly bit of a cheap shot, although it seems to be the running theme of this forum for people to take cheap shots at those trying to help.

Liam, I'm still really interested in seeing your set up, and also if you can upload some of your PKMs, and see how clear some of the chances are.

 

[Andras99]

If you look a few pages back, i wrote a few "nice" words about FM14 too. Things have changes. Yes, i still lose the occasional game, but most of the time i win 3-0, 4-0.
What changed? Tactic. (Same patch as frustration post before).
I used an attacking, short passing possession based tactic before, that worked superbly for me in FM13. It was easier to just complain that the game hates me, and the AI is set to Nightmare difficulty. I went from attacking to standard, removed the possession aspect (even though my board wants to play possession football). So far i lost 3 games in like 25, which is good.
My biggest mistake was trying to recreate something that worked with a different team, with different players. With the defenders i have now i can't play a high line, or use an attacking mentality, because my defenders are slow. My strikers are at best, ****. Yes you guessed, i play with Chelsea. It might not be the hardest team to play in FM, but lets just say my first attempt resulted in me deleting the save file after 6 months, because i couldn't link 2 wins.
What i am trying to say is, even if you see 100 people saying "OMG this tactic is so great!", it doesn't mean it will work for your team. I always created a tactic, then adapted my team to it. FM14 changed that, and now i adapt tactic to the team.
Hope it helps.