Post Your Frustrations

[louiscfc]

Scripted events in the game.

I have a few saves going but one is just for experimenting e.g trying out new saves/tactics. Anyway certain games I lose and I reload the game and try something different to try and better understand the ME and I'll choose a completely different tactic, some different shouts, opp. instructions but the game will still finish the same as the one before I reloaded. And it's not just my games either. Its other games what finish the same scores and I have even got the same team in the FA cup draw before! I would understand if this was a one off but it keeps happening. As if it's 'meant to be'.
Another example is when you're chasing a game, throwing players forward, using shouts, overload etc but no matter what you seem to do it's as if you know the game will not let you score, even though the opposition doesn't even change their tactics or anything to counter this. This is the same when hanging onto a lead, no matter how many defenders you put on, whether you try and keep the ball, counter the opposition or just keep it the same, you always know that late goal will come and surprise surprise it does.
And my final example is mid-season slumps. Particularly when you have by FAR the best team in the league and players, that slump will always come. I respect there are a whole number of reasons as to why this could be but it's just a matter of 'when' and there's not a lot you can do to prevent it. Sometimes, instead of trying to change everything, it's best just to try and wait it out and take your medicine as it is just a scripture in the game that happens to everyone to prevent the game becoming to easy.
Because of this my motivation of playing the game has dropped dramatically as it feels like the game changes the outcome and not you (maybe the very rare aggressive, overpowered half-time teamtalk).

 

[Psychotic17]

A great thing just happened to me: I had accepted a managerial role in Chile national team and I found out that the country's database wasn't wery well loaded - only 59 players, 5 of those were goalkeepers. I thought it's not good, but I can work with this... Now (half a year later) I have to select a 23-man squad for a World Cup Qualifiers... minimum of three goalkeepers. But two are injured and the third one rejected my call-up! I literally don't have 3 goalkeepers to register! Found no other way but to resign, the game wouldn't let me continue!

 

[jov43]

Champions league first knockout round, second game against juventus, and two players get sent off (6)(6)(6)
I needed 0-0 or win, but I lost 1-0 after playing entire half with 9 players
the players were Papadopulos and Wilshere

 

[Mike.]

Scripted events in the game.

I have a few saves going but one is just for experimenting e.g trying out new saves/tactics. Anyway certain games I lose and I reload the game and try something different to try and better understand the ME and I'll choose a completely different tactic, some different shouts, opp. instructions but the game will still finish the same as the one before I reloaded. And it's not just my games either. Its other games what finish the same scores and I have even got the same team in the FA cup draw before! I would understand if this was a one off but it keeps happening. As if it's 'meant to be'.
Another example is when you're chasing a game, throwing players forward, using shouts, overload etc but no matter what you seem to do it's as if you know the game will not let you score, even though the opposition doesn't even change their tactics or anything to counter this. This is the same when hanging onto a lead, no matter how many defenders you put on, whether you try and keep the ball, counter the opposition or just keep it the same, you always know that late goal will come and surprise surprise it does.
And my final example is mid-season slumps. Particularly when you have by FAR the best team in the league and players, that slump will always come. I respect there are a whole number of reasons as to why this could be but it's just a matter of 'when' and there's not a lot you can do to prevent it. Sometimes, instead of trying to change everything, it's best just to try and wait it out and take your medicine as it is just a scripture in the game that happens to everyone to prevent the game becoming to easy.
Because of this my motivation of playing the game has dropped dramatically as it feels like the game changes the outcome and not you (maybe the very rare aggressive, overpowered half-time teamtalk).

1) game isn't scripted like that

2) team talks are not overpowered

3) reloading the game will teach you very little unless you are being incredibly systematic each and every time.

 

[HasonJenderson]

Being 4-0 up in the first leg against Man United in the Champions League. 2nd leg comes along and a host of their players are below 90%, 2 of them below 80% condition, meanwhile, I rested pretty much my strongest XI in the league, so everyone is above 97% - I think to myself, "I've got this in the bag.". But no, they still manage to beat me 4-0 (their first three chances went in!!) and take me to extra time, they had TWO(2) penalties in extra time, thankfully Joe Hart saved one, but Rooney scored the other. At this point I'm ready to put my ******* PC through the window, but Peruzzi, my RB, out of nowhere finds himself in the box one on one, and he scores. Biggest sigh of relief ever. Still ****** off at the game though. My morale is very high, I got a positive reaction from both pre-match, half-time and full-time team talks, yet my players went full ******, it doesn't add up.

 

[Solratti]

Under staff responsibilities, he might be selected for finds new clubs for players or something like that.

Nope, everything on Staff Responsibilities menu are on me (manager). The player is not on the unwanted list, and i just noticed that his asking price keeps resetting to player value. My only explanation would be that the player is transfer listed by request but even so no other stuff should accept or reject offers. BTW it still frustrates me cause i haven't sold him yet.

 

[Rupal]

1) game isn't scripted like that

2) team talks are not overpowered

3) reloading the game will teach you very little unless you are being incredibly systematic each and every time.

Bald statements like these really don't get to the issues. If people believed that 'the game isn't scripted like that' or 'team talks are not overpowered' they wouldn't be making the sorts of posts which they do. It's because they feel that the game IS scripted in exactly that fashion and that team talks ARE, indeed, overpowered that they post on threads like this and just telling them that it ain't so is hardly likely by itself to persuade them that they are mistaken. It's like players not doing what you ask them to do. When you do everything that you can think of to stop them from taking ridiculous long shots and they still keep on taking them, or you have everything you can think of set to make them play the ball short and they still hoof it anyway, you begin to think that the whole ME is fixed in some way and that your input has less and less importance. After all, if this isn't the case, why do these sorts of things keep happening? And saying that 'the ME isn't fixed' wouldn't, by itself, be enough to allay those doubts about it.

 

[TheBetterHalf]

Bald statements like these really don't get to the issues. If people believed that 'the game isn't scripted like that' or 'team talks are not overpowered' they wouldn't be making the sorts of posts which they do. It's because they feel that the game IS scripted and that team talks ARE overpowered that they post on threads like this and just telling them that it ain't so is hardly likely by itself to persuade them that they are mistaken. It's like players not doing what you ask them to do. When you do everything that you can think of to stop them from taking ridiculous long shots and they still keep on taking them, or you have everything you can think of set to make them play the ball short and they still hoof it anyway, you begin to think that the whole ME is fixed in some way and that your input has less and less importance. After all, if it ISN'T scripted, why do these things happen?

Look at it this way. The reason for Mike and Me ( amongst others) telling the user that the game is not scripted is not with the aim to make the person see that it is not but more in the lines of not letting other users get misslead.

The reason for me( as I cant speak for others) not explaining indepth why things work the way they do, is simply because we have done it 100 times before and are rather tired of it.

 

[kristiansp5]

Got Gotze back from a 3 month injury, play him, 2 minutes in and he gets injured for 4 months.

 

[Rupal]

Look at it this way. The reason for Mike and Me ( amongst others) telling the user that the game is not scripted is not with the aim to make the person see that it is not but more in the lines of not letting other users get misslead.

The reason for me( as I cant speak for others) not explaining indepth why things work the way they do, is simply because we have done it 100 times before and are rather tired of it.

In other words, it boils down more or less to the assertion that we have to accept that Mike (or you) knows best and that's it. You can hardly be surprised if this answer doesn't convince people, though!! Those of us who have experienced some or all of the various frustrations which people have listed in this thread will doubtless continue to feel that the game ain't playing as it ought to, no doubt will keep griping about the latest disaster to have fallen unjustly upon us :'( and will continue to feel that the whole thing has been fixed, no matter how much people assert the contrary !

 

[Mike.]

Look at it this way. The reason for Mike and Me ( amongst others) telling the user that the game is not scripted is not with the aim to make the person see that it is not but more in the lines of not letting other users get misslead.

The reason for me( as I cant speak for others) not explaining indepth why things work the way they do, is simply because we have done it 100 times before and are rather tired of it.

This is thing, its not and never has been about the game, but about the user.

I hate the idea of people not being able to enjoy the game, it's why I actually bother to read this thread.

 

[Mike.]

In other words, it boils down more or less to the assertion that we have to accept that Mike (or you) knows best and that's it. You can hardly be surprised if this answer doesn't convince people, though!! Those of us who have experienced some or all of the various frustrations which people have listed in this thread will doubtless continue to feel that the game ain't playing as it ought to, no doubt will keep griping about the latest disaster to have fallen unjustly upon us :'( and will continue to feel that the whole thing has been fixed, no matter how much people assert the contrary !

I'm going to give you an answer from the person behind the Tactics creator and the most knowledgable person behind the ME, apart from Paul Collyer himself.

By the way this thread was actually discussed on SI:

Originally Posted by wwfan
Indeed, having glanced through the thread you've mentioned, it seems to be a microcosm of the whole SI fora. You have one or two people vocally complaining that the game sucks, usually because they aren't winning. You have a few bad theories, regarding one notch of the slider making lots of difference, the AI cracking your tactic, or team talks being overpowered. You then have a few knowledgable people explaining how things work (Mike. The BetterHalf, ajt09), who invariably don't get listened to.



Here was my reply:

I can attest to this (clarification for those who don't know, I'm Mike.)

I've followed that thread right from the start, and frequently post on it. There are some genuine concerns on there, I've thrown in a few myself, as I have done so on here, namely talking about the game needing more accessibility.

But honestly about 90% of that thread comes down to players' own unrealistic interpretations, various myths perpetuated about the game, conspiracies about the AI, and players needing to adjust their own approaches.

If anything should be taken from that thread, its inaccessibility. Lots of people get angry because they can't see why they are going wrong, it's not that they are doing badly, or doing well. They simply cannot see why, and as I've said before, it doesn't matter how many bugs you fix, if a player cant get to grips with the game they will give up long before they get to see all the depth in the game. Better feedback from the game is a must, for example a better assistant manager.

Here was his reply to that:

Well said. I do think there's been a big shift in understanding this year from the vast majority of users frequenting the SI fora. I've been very impressed with the quality of advice given by many of our members. It is frustrating, however, when you read threads like this, in which the same tired old false opinions about how team talks, press conferences, tactics etc work reappear.

I might well be wrong, but it has always seemed to me that these arguments are raised by people with a gaming mentality, in which there's always supposed to be a hot and cold choice for every situation. FM is far subtler than that. It obviously is not doing a great job in transmitting that information, although it's also not doing a terrible job, as an awful lot of people have grasped the subtleties. I think a lot of the failure to grasp the subtleties happens because of fansite myth, which often actually prevents people from properly understanding how things work. And therein lies the problem with the OP. If SI listen to a section of the fanbase which is categorically failing to understand the subtleties of the game in design matters, then we'll have a mishmash of a game that ultimately pleases nobody. The answer is to make things clearer, but not to spoon feed. That's a tough balance to achieve.

Look we dont say what we say because we "defend" the game, we say it because we do know exactly what we are talking about for the most part. We say it because if the user follows the wrong route he is in for a world of frustration, and that is no fun for them

 

[TheBetterHalf]

In other words, it boils down more or less to the assertion that we have to accept that Mike (or you) knows best and that's it. You can hardly be surprised if this answer doesn't convince people, though!! Those of us who have experienced some or all of the various frustrations which people have listed in this thread will doubtless continue to feel that the game ain't playing as it ought to, no doubt will keep griping about the latest disaster to have fallen unjustly upon us :'( and will continue to feel that the whole thing has been fixed, no matter how much people assert the contrary !

Disclaimer: I am only talking about the game being scripted and team talks being overpowered here. Many of the other issues raised in this thread are valid as they are flaws in the game but they happen to the CPU as well.

Its 2 different things though, postintg in the frustration thread and opening a thread actually wanting to discusse it.

When posting in the frustration thread, posts are not really meant to be anwered as its a place to vent but when a person makes a statement that the game IS scripted or something IS in a certain way, one has to write that its not if we believe that its entirely false. If we where to go into a discussion, then it would not be a frustrationthread anymore.

When claiming in a normal discussion thread that the game is scripted, then we have tried to explain why we believe its not ( we explaining how we feel the game works and that we trust SI when they say that they have not used "elastic bands" in the code etc". I would say that I have seen over 100 of these threads since FM08 and sometimes the user sees our point but in most cases, they dont as they simply dont believe SI and then, its no point what so ever in continuing the discussion.

But in short, I believe the game is not scripted due to two things

1) I have never seen it in any of my saves, ever.
2.) I believe SI when they time after time says that its not the way its coded.

I also believe that team talks ( unless being horrible poor at them) are NOT overpowered. What I always say though and experienced is that Man Management is extremely important but that its a longterm thing, not that what you say in half time makes that amount of difference( again, unless getting it entirely wrong, acting really weird and confusing the players)


In my opinion, the niggest reason why people thinks/fels the game is scripted is because they dont watch the matches and prepare enough for them. IN earlier edition, you did not have to do this as one only had to use a tactic that exploited the Match Engine and then one got away with making misstakes leading to that people never actually learned what "short passing" is or what each team talk really mean.

 

[Rupal]

I have had some very interesting exchanges with wwfan in previous forums so I am well aware of a lot of his views, for which I have considerable respect. I do, however, have a genuine concern that the game, partly as a result of its overwhelming concern for 'realism' has become less responsive than it should be to human manager input. There are so many variables which it appears to take into account and they seem to grow in number with every edition. This process seems to me to present the possibility that the influence which the human manager can have on the outcome of matches will decrease as the number of variables rises. I appreciate that it is possible to make a case that 'realism must always be good' and this would appear to be in line with wwfan's point of view. However, it must be understood that there is a perfectly viable alternative view. It is completely reasonable for somebody to expect that a game will have decent playability. If inputting more and more variables means that the gamer (I use this term advisedly here) feels less and less in control of what is happening and the results of matches appear to become more arbitrary then, for a substantial number of players, the playability experience will be diminished. It seems to me that this concern is what lies behind a lot of the complaints which we have seen on this thread. I often find the explanations given to explain (say) slumps or bizarre player behaviour, etc, etc to be too convoluted to be convincing. At times, the game appears to verge on the random and while that may mirror life (chaos theory, butterfly wing.....) it doesn't provide as satisfying a gaming experience as various people think that it should, which is a pity. a

 

[TheBetterHalf]

I have had some very interesting exchanges with wwfan in previous forums so I am well aware of a lot of his views, for which I have considerable respect. I do, however, have a genuine concern that the game, partly as a result of its overwhelming concern for 'realism' has become less responsive than it should be to human manager input. There are so many variables which it appears to take into account and they seem to grow in number with every edition. This process seems to me to present the possibility that the influence which the human manager can have on the outcome of matches will decrease as the number of variables rises. I appreciate that it is possible to make a case that 'realism must always be good' and this would appear to be in line with wwfan's point of view. However, it must be understood that there is a perfectly viable alternative view. It is completely reasonable for somebody to expect that a game will have decent playability. If inputting more and more variables means that the gamer (I use this term advisedly here) feels less and less in control of what is happening and the results of matches appear to become more arbitrary then, for a substantial number of players, the playability experience will be diminished. It seems to me that this concern is what lies behind a lot of the complaints which we have seen on this thread. I often find the explanations given to explain (say) slumps or bizarre player behaviour, etc, etc to be too convoluted to be convincing. At times, the game appears to verge on the random and while that may mirror life (chaos theory, butterfly wing.....) it doesn't provide as satisfying a gaming experience as various people think that it should, which is a pity. a

I think you are spot on here as to why people feel they have less control. I however dont think there are more variables as such but that its down to that there are less tactical exploits to use, leading to that the user actually IS in less control if previoulsy having used those exploits.

 

[Mike.]

I have had some very interesting exchanges with wwfan in previous forums so I am well aware of a lot of his views, for which I have considerable respect. I do, however, have a genuine concern that the game, partly as a result of its overwhelming concern for 'realism' has become less responsive than it should be to human manager input. There are so many variables which it appears to take into account and they seem to grow in number with every edition. This process seems to me to present the possibility that the influence which the human manager can have on the outcome of matches will decrease as the number of variables rises. I appreciate that it is possible to make a case that 'realism must always be good' and this would appear to be in line with wwfan's point of view. However, it must be understood that there is a perfectly viable alternative view. It is completely reasonable for somebody to expect that a game will have decent playability. If inputting more and more variables means that the gamer (I use this term advisedly here) feels less and less in control of what is happening and the results of matches appear to become more arbitrary then, for a substantial number of players, the playability experience will be diminished. It seems to me that this concern is what lies behind a lot of the complaints which we have seen on this thread. I often find the explanations given to explain (say) slumps or bizarre player behaviour, etc, etc to be too convoluted to be convincing. At times, the game appears to verge on the random and while that may mirror life (chaos theory, butterfly wing.....) it doesn't provide as satisfying a gaming experience as various people think that it should, which is a pity. a

That's a very different argument to ones about scripting and other various myths. Now if you are saying there needs to be more clarity and explanation about all the inputs, then that's a very different, and salient point. And the core issue I keep raising time and again.

It hasn't become less responsive, arguably quite the opposite, it will punish "bad" inputs, and reward "good" inputs more than ever before. The need to have some kind of basic and clear working strategy is rightly more important ever more, but with that, explanations of the various concepts is a must. The gamer needs to be made aware of all the various concepts and how far they extend. On this point FM13 is brutal to anyone new to it.

But gamers must also take responsibility, some of the logic used by players on this forum to counteract difficulties is beyond baffling at times.

 

[Rupal]

The fact however is that elements of the game are bound to increase a feeling that the gamer can do whatever he/she likes and there will be no difference. I will repeat my point about player instructions. When I set my team to 'Short Passing' use the 'Play out of Defence', 'Pass to Feet' and 'Work the Ball into the Box' instructions, have my team on 'Very Rigid' and check 'More Disciplined' and move all the individual players' passing to 'Short' and my defenders and midfielders STILL keep on hoofing ultra long balls high into the box and over the goal line how the hangment can I feel that I am in any sort of control at all? But this happens and not only to me!! I honestly believe that this is a fault in the game (one of many) and it is this sort of thing which makes people throw up their hands in despair and go off to play World of Warcraft!

 

[Mike.]

The fact however is that elements of the game are bound to increase a feeling that the gamer can do whatever he/she likes and there will be no difference. I will repeat my point about player instructions. When I set my team to 'Short Passing' use the 'Play out of Defence', 'Pass to Feet' and 'Work the Ball into the Box' instructions, have my team on 'Very Rigid' and check 'More Disciplined' and move all the individual players' passing to 'Short' and my defenders and midfielders STILL keep on hoofing ultra long balls high into the box and over the goal line how the hangment can I feel that I am in any sort of control at all? But this happens and not only to me!! I honestly believe that this is a fault in the game (one of many) and it is this sort of thing which makes people throw up their hands in despair and go off to play World of Warcraft!

I can tell you very quickly why. If the play cannot make the short pass, he is going to take the next safest option, usally that is to hoof it up the pitch in most case. The single biggest issue I see from players is that they play a short game, but not enough players are set to be recieving options. And all that is before you even take into account the opposition.

All very well saying you want an short game, which going to be lower tempo (lets assume sliders haven't been tinkered with, also tempo and passing links are another discussion for another day), but if you are being pressed to death by the opposition and you haven't got the quality to out pass that pressure, your players will take the next safe option, to boot it out, because actually by saying more disciplined you are not giving him the option to go long if that is actually the right call over a short pass. So a good player will follow your instructions, and wait and hold on to the ball, and look for the option, not find it and wait etc and then hoof it. A poor player will actually end up getting robbed of the ball or making a bad pass that gets intercepted usually.

Now we can certainly make the argument that there needs to be better lateral movement. But the general issue would nearly always be a mostly player ability/tactical input by the user one.

 

[TheBetterHalf]

The fact however is that elements of the game are bound to increase a feeling that the gamer can do whatever he/she likes and there will be no difference. I will repeat my point about player instructions. When I set my team to 'Short Passing' use the 'Play out of Defence', 'Pass to Feet' and 'Work the Ball into the Box' instructions, have my team on 'Very Rigid' and check 'More Disciplined' and move all the individual players' passing to 'Short' and my defenders and midfielders STILL keep on hoofing ultra long balls high into the box and over the goal line how the hangment can I feel that I am in any sort of control at all? But this happens and not only to me!! I honestly believe that this is a fault in the game (one of many) and it is this sort of thing which makes people throw up their hands in despair and go off to play World of Warcraft!

About the short passing: Previously when I have talked to users about the "hoofing issue", I have asked them to upload a pkm fo me to look at. On all these occasions - me watching that game in full mode and then again in extended higlihts, also using the analyzing tool to actually look at their passing pattern - it turned out to be entirely false. The players ( here, defenders and mostly fullbacks) did indeed play an extreme amount of short passing but as these never lead to anything, they did not show up in the highlights. The times where they hoofed the ball, it was almost always due to launch a counter attack, the player not having a "safe short passing option" or that they felt under pressure.

 

[Rupal]

All I can say is that I always watch full match. Now whether Lower League players have some built-in propensity to hoof the ball I don't know (I suppose it is possible, though, if so, I wish it was made clear at the beginning) and I always (********* as I am) manage teams like Truro or Histon rather than Barcelona or Man U, but if they do not then I am fully satisfied that they boot it long far more than I have told them to - even when there is a perfectly viable alternative available close at hand. Booting it into the stands out of danger is one thing - hoofing it aimlessly high into the box when there isn't a striker within 30 metres of the penalty spot is quite another - and extremely irritating into the bargain!