Tactical problems

[jee]

First of all, i think i have 2 problems:

1. English. Sometimes i missunderstand what you say and you usually seem not to understand me.
2. Watching games. I get no conclusion watching them.

I'm not using a bwm as the only midfielder staying back. I changed it a long time ago. I paired bwm-su with dlp-de...


Which solutions exactly i ignored? I did what you and other guys told me. I've read the hole thread again and there is no advice that i didn't follow! I'm not saying it's your fault, of course it's mine, but, please don't say i'm not trying what you say because it's not true. I'm doing my best.

Post 2: i read.
Post 3 i did
Post 4 i did
Post 6 i built my tactic with minimal TIs
Post 7. Removed very fluid, lowered the defense, removed overlapping.
Post 9 I did exactly what you told me
Post 10 I did
Post 16 i explained.
Pos 18 i did
Post 20 i did exactly.
Post 22 i did exactly.
Posts 24, 26, 28 30. Useful conversation.
Post 31. Important post:

nce you have that base, watch it in action. If you have a 4-2-3-1, as an example, look to see when your MCL has the ball, who his options are. Does he have enough options? If not, can you improve this in any way by changing another player's role or duty? If you have enough passing options, look at who they are. Are they all in separate spaces instead of bunching in one area? Are they in space?

When you lose the ball, pause the game. How many are breaking forward? How many do you have back to stop this? Are there players close enough to take pressure off of those who stayed back?

I do this. Everytime i watch a game but I can't answer any of this questions.

Post 35. Note that we are now at the same point. Watch matches.
Post 38. No, i didn't miss.
Post 39. I did exactly. Probably the most useful post for me.
Post 41, I read
Post 42-46 I did exactly. Very useful also.
Post 50. I did.
Post 55. What "still hasn't even been acknowledged"? Sorry, i don't understand what i'm missing here.
Post 57 i did
Post 59 i did
Post 62. I explained in post 65.

And here we go:

Post 66 and 68. Everything you say, in centuries i wouldn't be able to realize that is happening. I'm dumbfounded. How you see all this? Where are you looking at? Of course when you post screenshots i see what you are saying, but if i play game i'm completely unable to see anything. I'm not trolling and i'm looking. It's just that i don't see it happening.
For instance:

"Please tell me you can see the #14 in acres of space. You put Abate at MR, but he's doing nothing. Couldn't you be narrower? Couldn't you ask either the SS/A or MR to mark a midfielder? That unmarked midfielder received the ball here and delivered the through ball that cost you the game"

Yes i could be narrower, but how? width? I've read everywhere width only affects attacking. Sit narrower PI makes no sense because it is when the team has the ball (not defending). Anyway, i don't see that acres of space on my own, so all you said is useless for me.
I already explained it in post 73.

OIs. I was told not to use OIs in post 22.

Don't say i'm lazy. Say i'm stupid or something, but i'm not lazy. I'm doing my best from the first moment.

Post 75. I did in post 77
Post 76. I don't know how to watch properly.
Post 78. Crosses. I tried all kind of crosses and stats show no diference
Post 80. I fully explained.
...

I followed your instructions but it is useless. The only explanation i found is what i said above: i don't understand what you say, you don't understand me and i don't know how to watch a game.

I come back to my yesterday's post: Please, could you be so nice to tell me what do you pay attention to when watching a game? I do what you say in post 31 but i get no conclusion. THe most i can do is what i did in post 77.

Could you be more specific on what you focus on? I said it before: i score and don't know why. The oponent creates a chance and i don't know why. I don't kwon what happened. I don't know if is an individual mistake or a tactical issue. How do you know that?

 

[WJ]

No, Jee. The problem is that if I don't spoonfeed you so much that I tell you exactly which button to press, you are lost. I practically give you the answers, but still nothing. I've analysed more of your matches than I have in my own save, which is now in 2036.

You've already highlighted post 31. That's mostly what I do. Once you get a grip on seeing passing options, then you can move on to other areas. Baby steps.

You must be trolling though. You claim to have read post #3, but then the very next post has a million TIs.

In post #8 you continue with the mass amount of TIs, again ignoring advice. I have to repeat it in post #9.

In post #19, after being told not to just change things, you now go and change the formation (which will function differently) so we have to start from scratch again. New formation when you didn't understand the previous one and again, pointless TIs, because you have no idea that they are harming that setup.

Then in the same post, you AGAIN change formation when you didn't understand the previous two. We told you not to do this?

Then you claim to understand and follow the advice in post#20. Problem is that you didn't read it or understood only half when I was quite clear. For instance, I said this:

In both tactics you choose to have BOTH fullbacks bombing forward. Normally you'd have one fullback bombing and a holding midfielder covering the defence on that side, just in case of a quick break down the middle or that side. You have 2 attacking fullbacks, but 1 midfielder covering BOTH flanks. It's risky.

I told you EXACTLY what the issue is - 2 attacking fullbacks, but 1 covering midfielder. I told you what to do even - 1 attacking fullback with 1 midfielder covering there. What did you do? Change a fullback but also reigned in the 2nd midfielder to cover the flank that your FB isn't attacking anymore. Eh? Now you have no one threatening in the middle.

And you were not told NOT to use OIs in post #22. You were told not to use any that will disrupt the tactic. There's a massive difference. Read the entire sentence.


Post #23 again changes formation. FFS. Again though, you ignore the fact that you need a midfielder to cover for EACH fullback. I told you this, but no, you select 2x CWB/A fullbacks and you have an Anchor Man covering for both. Then you wonder why you concede from crosses.

Post #29. You don't even take the time to know why you're choosing the roles that you do. If you just looked at the CWB's PIs, you'd see he's set to Cross More Often.

Post #31. Again, a long post explaining what you can do. I told you what you can watch for with and without the ball. I offered to watch it with you if you post PKMs.

What exactly does "I get no conclusion" mean? If you have eyes, you can see what's happening. Is it because the game isn't telling you which button to press? To read "I get no conclusion" is infuriating when we've put so much time into giving you advice already by this point and you're not grasping simple concepts and simply ignoring posts.

Post #34 and AGAIN you're changing formation. Again using TIs when it wasn't necessary and that'll harm the tactic.

Post #49 AGAIN sees a formation change. How will you ever understand any formation if you just mindlessly flick through them after a few games? You also complain about conceding 0.5 goals per game, which isn't bad though. If you look at the PL right now, the closest anyone got was Tottenham who conceded 30 in 37 games. That's 0.8 per game.

Post #55, the post wasn't acknowledged at all. The entire post. I took time to write it. Nothing. You didn't have questions about it. You didn't post the PKMs like I asked. You didn't post screenshots of situations where you can't see issues, but maybe we can. Nothing. Post #31 was posted, but there was just no response. When something like that happens, it's exactly the same as being ignored. You're given advice, but nothing.

Post #56 is just baffling. I cannot wrap my mind around it. You claim this about the DLF/S and SS/A:

this is the best attacking combination i've found. We have a dlf who comes deep and creates spaces for the SS, who will become the main scorer. Also he should help me to defend.

That's just bullshit. In my analysis I told you exactly the the DLF is uninvolved, so how are they the best you've found? The way you set them up also saw them doing the complete opposite of what you claimed.

Bacca, the DLF/S, is on his own. He's completely uninvolved. ONE look at the stats will show you (although I saw this by watching the first 15 mins on Comprehensive) that he doesn't feature at all. In 60 mins, he made 23 passes. Both him and Bonaventura (the MR - WM/S) do not receive passes.

Why do you not see this? Why don't you attempt anything about it? Honda, the SS/A who is supposed to be the scorer, is more of a creator. He can almost never pass to the DLF/S, because he's just not in space. That means the passes go wide. It's either a through ball to the MR (that never gets there) or a pass to Suso at ML who cuts inside to try and dribble through 3-4 players

Again, strange questions:

Post 66 and 68. Everything you say, in centuries i wouldn't be able to realize that is happening. I'm dumbfounded. How you see all this? Where are you looking at? Of course when you post screenshots i see what you are saying, but if i play game i'm completely unable to see anything. I'm not trolling and i'm looking. It's just that i don't see it happening.
For instance:

"Please tell me you can see the #14 in acres of space. You put Abate at MR, but he's doing nothing. Couldn't you be narrower? Couldn't you ask either the SS/A or MR to mark a midfielder? That unmarked midfielder received the ball here and delivered the through ball that cost you the game"

Yes i could be narrower, but how? width? I've read everywhere width only affects attacking. Sit narrower PI makes no sense because it is when the team has the ball (not defending). Anyway, i don't see that acres of space on my own, so all you said is useless for me.

Again I gave you the answer? "Couldn't you ask either the SS/A or MR to mark a midfielder?" This is just nuts. Spoonfeeding at its best and still I get nowhere with you.

Anyway, you can be narrower in width and with the PI. It doesn't change defensive width, you're right, but it does affect their starting position when you lose the ball. If you lose the ball and Abate was hugging the touchline, he now needs to get back and also has to come in quite a bit, where if he was staying narrower, he'd be in a better starting position to defend. It doesn't matter too much because they had the advantage in midfield here. The BWM (something we kept saying) was far too happy to leave position and close players down. Yes it works, but in cases like those, the BWM (Poli) left his position eagerly to close down the ball carrier and so the other opposition midfielder was just left wide open. You could mark that open midfielder specifically to make up for this, yes, but you have to be aware that that is just what a BWM does. It's another piece of information that we kept repeating, that a BWM just will leave gaps, but you persisted with it.

Then after the analysis and me taking time out of my busy life to watch YOUR matches, nothing. No feedback at all. You don't post about what you though of it and what changes you may make and why. Absolutely nothing. So basically, ignored again. Post #72 sums it up, really. That isn't stupidity. If you did make changes, but you don't bother to tell the people who take a lot of time to give you advice - that's lazy or it is rude, you choose.

Post #76 says it all. I don't understand how you cannot see the unmarked midfielders. If you took my advice in post #31, you would have watched the build-up to one of their goals, paused the match and seen it. I can only assume that you didn't do this, so again, my time giving you advice has gone to waste.

Post #78 - **** the stats? Use your head?! I explained in detail what each cross is for, the advantages and disadvantages. You can surely see the attributes of your own players and you claim to have watched a lot of games, so you surely then know what you're facing as well? You may not even use the same crossing types in every match. You're allowed to change this, you know. Again, I give advice and seemingly the only thing you did was to look at cross percentage. This is another post that is absolutely infuriating.

Post #80/81 you didn't fully explain. You use vague terms all the time. I want to exploit the wings. I want to exploit the striker. What on earth does that mean?

From there it's just more weird choices for roles. You want attacking wingers who cross, but you (for some inexplicable reason) don't want to set them to Attack duties. You want wingers to attack the opposition fullbacks and cross to... TWO withdrawn strikers. Excellent.

Post on the official SI games forum. Seriously. You'll get more viewpoints and more advice from different people and hopefully something will click.

 

[jee]

Well, it's clear we are going nowhere. Just two things:

1. If anything i said seemed rude, i'm sorry, that was not my intention. Probably here language is a problem. I have problems when I try to say what i exactly want to say. Even sometimes i didn't write something because i didn't know how to say it in english.
2. I've been doing my best. I watched a lot of games trying to do things on my own. You can't say i'm lazy. I watched a game 100 times trying to understand why i was losing it everytime, without posting here. I can say i still have no idea what is wrong in this match and why i'm losing.

Thanks for trying to help me and just one advice:
i admit it's possible my posts sounded rude to you, although it was not my intention (i'm sorry, again), but you should be careful also: you use to belittle other's efforts and i know i'm not the first to say it. Not everybody is as talented as you. Don't go saying anyone can easily identify issues because it is false. I can't.

Anyway, thanks again for trying to help me.

 

[WJ]

Well, it's clear we are going nowhere. Just two things:

1. If anything i said seemed rude, i'm sorry, that was not my intention. Probably here language is a problem. I have problems when I try to say what i exactly want to say. Even sometimes i didn't write something because i didn't know how to say it in english.
2. I've been doing my best. I watched a lot of games trying to do things on my own. You can't say i'm lazy. I watched a game 100 times trying to understand why i was losing it everytime, without posting here. I can say i still have no idea what is wrong in this match and why i'm losing.

Thanks for trying to help me and just one advice:
i admit it's possible my posts sounded rude to you, although it was not my intention (i'm sorry, again), but you should be careful also: you use to belittle other's efforts and i know i'm not the first to say it. Not everybody is as talented as you. Don't go saying anyone can easily identify issues because it is false. I can't.

Anyway, thanks again for trying to help me.

It has nothing to do with being 'talented'. I'm definitely not. Anyone can see it if they actually take the time to. Baby steps, as I said.

Anyway, I'm done.

 

[Keith Ang]

WJ has been helping the ppl in this forum alot. and honestly he doesnt spoon feed. but you were the one of the few exceptions. anyway hope u find your answers tho, as i have seen some were already rectify by WJ. GL bud

 

[vasilli07]

Spend some time to check out all his videos. If you still can't get a grip of things, you will probably need a real asst manager to sit beside you.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWUCWx5HNWSuzwGxwVczGPQ/playlists

 

[jee]

I definitely need a real asst manager to sit beside me. What key information is in that videos? I just watched them and i don't feel anything changed.

 

[maxchaplin55]

I definitely need a real asst manager to sit beside me. What key information is in that videos? I just watched them and i don't feel anything changed.

One point I don't think was made- you kept saying you want clean sheets and you're not focused on attacking. Have you ever heard the saying 'Attacking is the best form of defence"? If you have all your defenders and midfielders on support/defence duties- this is so easy to defend against and therefore opposition managers realise they can commit more players forward without risk, and this is why I think you concede more, without watching any of your games.

 

[WJ]

One point I don't think was made- you kept saying you want clean sheets and you're not focused on attacking. Have you ever heard the saying 'Attacking is the best form of defence"? If you have all your defenders and midfielders on support/defence duties- this is so easy to defend against and therefore opposition managers realise they can commit more players forward without risk, and this is why I think you concede more, without watching any of your games.

It wasn't that so much as the attacks amounting to nothing, because the setup wasn't good enough. That meant giving the ball away too much/too easily, giving the opposition then more time with the ball to do something. But who cares about all that, right?

 

[maxchaplin55]

It wasn't that so much as the attacks amounting to nothing, because the setup wasn't good enough. That meant giving the ball away too much/too easily, giving the opposition then more time with the ball to do something. But who cares about all that, right?

 

[jee]

I do not know what this is in aid of, after 6 months... I'm not here asking for help anymore because WJ said he didn't know how to help me, even if he still wanted. If anybody wants to help me, great, I'll post again here, but I think this is not the purpose of the post...

 

[Uwain]

sorry for the necro...

I just had to register and post my thanks to the contributors of this thread... some really useful info/insights in here. The OP's persistence really helped thrash some things out.

I share the OP's frustrations though... I too find it difficult to spot the problems or whats happening on the screen in front of me. Though I do find it a bit easier when I slow the game speed down quite a bit - this helps me spot things sometimes.

I'm not asking for help (though I may start my own thread sometime), just empathising with the OP...
I still have lots of games where I can go into a 3-0 lead in the first 10 minutes... I know they are going to do
something to try and change it up... I see the formation change to "attacking"... I slow the game viewer speed down and just stare at the screen... and bang... 3-1... no idea how.
Then, 3-2... I think you know where this is going!

The only real observations I make is that:

• Every loose ball goes directly to an opponent.
• They are everywhere on the pitch so are able to intercept everything.
• The opposition suddenly (even at 3-0 when they should be deflated) figure out how to make pin-point passes at very high speed/tempo without putting a foot wrong.
• I rarely see the opposition body language deteriorate - and when it does, it quickly improves again - without even creating chances/goals?? Some manager!

It really really feels like the game is setup to keep things close (is it called rubberbanding??) - though I know this has been firmly denied.

And don't get me started with playing against complete underdogs!!

I deal with my frustrations by taking the season long view and by keeping in mind my teams ability - I really shouldn't be beating the top teams, and I doubt I should be beating anyone 3-0... so taking a 3-0 lead is flattering.

I envy you guru's who can watch comprehensive highlights and come back with so many good ideas - though I fear many of us may not have the players to do what is sometimes suggested (sometimes you just cant stop that skillfull, lightning fast winger... no matter what you do).

Anyway, thanks again to all of you... and if anyone reading this has insight (preferably video with commentary) on how to read ordinary games (not teams full of superstars) more easily please do share!

 

[CaptiveBridge]

Anyway, thanks again to all of you... and if anyone reading this has insight (preferably video with commentary) on how to read ordinary games (not teams full of superstars) more easily please do share!

Never tried looking at video before, since I'm a fan of reading. But before I send you down the rabbit hole or even try to find said videos, it'd help to have an idea what you want to learn. What have you read? What do you want to do? Generalist tactics or specific styles?

 

[Uwain]

Never tried looking at video before, since I'm a fan of reading. But before I send you down the rabbit hole or even try to find said videos, it'd help to have an idea what you want to learn. What have you read? What do you want to do? Generalist tactics or specific styles?

Hey a response! Thanks!!

My apologies in advance... I have a lot of time on my hands and this post got away from me!!

I've read just about everything Google finds that relates to FM14, FM15 and FM16. I tend not to read anything from earlier versions since I assume things have changed. Bookmarked a lot of it, but the amount of information is so vast I've not revisited it all - I do revisit some as I feel my understanding changing/evolving.
There are some pieces that read like somebodies dissertation/thesis for some post-grad studies! I find it difficult to believe that all of that is necessary, but I read them anyway!

I only expressed a preference for video in the hope that I find an ordinary someone who has started a game with absolutely no alterations and talked through his thinking/decisions. Something as simple as a match with commentary about what is happening and why. Theory is fine too (in theory!).
The trouble is many of the videos I have watched and blogs I have read already have quite different players whom I suspect make things all too easy for any tactic work.
Indeed, my own tactics are improving now that I have spent a couple of seasons in the EPL because my better players are covering for me!

I want to know everything about this game so that I can take any formation with any players and build a relatively successful tactic (I don't mean I want to be a world beater with non-league players!).

I think I have a reasonable grasp of balanced tactics. In general, the more attacking my mentality the fewer attacking roles I will assign (and vice versa). The fewer 'strata' I have covered by players the more fluid I will ask them to play (to close the vertical gaps). And I try to ensure that all players have an adjacent player on an adjacent strata at all times.
I'm sure there are exceptions to this (eg Long Ball up&over type play may well require stretched out strata with big vertical gaps in places) but I tend to avoid them.

I think what I'm after is probably not possible tbh! I'm probably just looking for my "Ahhhh" moment, and I feel it must be getting close cos I have spent many months looking.

I wanna watch the full game (I was watching full match for months, but lately decided not to bother since I don't seem to react correctly anyway) and be able to change tactics for the better or see/understand the thought process behind trouble shooting a tactic...
eg if its 35 mins in and they have a packed defence, and most of my shots are from around the edges of the area I wanna change that.
My 'research' to this point would tell me to use "work ball into box" to get closer shots... but also that if the defence is packed that this shout is probably not helpful (more time to pack the box further).
My own logic (and some reading supports this) tells me to draw the team out and hit them on the break to reduce numbers in the box - and I find this very difficult to achieve (this may be down to my players).
My interpretation of the FM theory is that I should pick a patient mentality (defensive/counter) and play a little deeper. Some possession would probably help to pull them about a bit, and maybe some roaming PI's or TI to help with the pulling. But I must have missed something somewhere, because it just does not seem possible to get more than 4 of their players to commit, leaving 7 to beat down the business end.

Just to be able to fully understand why I lost a game would be a huge improvement.

The most frustrating thing is the way the AI hits back at you - or at least, the way the ME/MatchViewer represents it. The moves are clinical, and without hesitation despite the fact that they were totally unable to string 2 passes together just a moment before. Suddenly, none of my players can keep up with them despite them all (my players) being quicker. Their wingers always manage to release the cross the instant that they get to the byeline... and there is always someone just arriving on the edge of the 6-yard box to finish (way ahead of his marker thanks to his super pacey attribute of about 11).
My own crosses are cumbersome, the winger hangs about on the byeline scratching his **** and by the time he decides to release the ball all of the runners are already standing around having a silent party with the enemy... and even if I get a shot from it, it is impossible to get the ball through that little party of people.

So, I convince myself the match viewer is not completely accurate as this simply cannot happen the way it is, and then I lose all faith in everything I am seeing and return to Key Highlights only and guessing the tweaks!
This is not what I want to do; it is what I have to do as I am running out of keyboards and monitors.

I now play pretty much by "feel"... I will often use a 4-4-1-1 tactic (heavily based on the TFF Battlemaster) - I find that with roles/duties this can play like so many different formations that it is a useful tactic to have.
I keep a 4-1-4-1 in reserve for similar reasons and a bit more help defensively.
And I experiment with asymmetric formations for the third... that I use when nothing seems to work.

My ideal (and the type of thing I always used since Championship Manager days) would be a kind of 3 at the back, with 2 wingbacks just in front, 3 cm's and 2 up front (0-2, 1-1 or even strikerless 2-0... not fussy).
Attacking would be a patient/lazy style, playing around at the back in my third/half of the pitch waiting to release a runner to break through and go 1 on 1.
Defending would be similar, contain deep in my half (drawing them out), soaking up pressure but not allowing anyone in the box (I know this is dangerous in FM16 with OP crosses).
But I'm a long way off of having that!

I find a lot of things can be changed just using width TI (and Team Shape - vertical width). But playing with the Attacking TI is often necessary too.
These changes often necessitate other little changes to the TI's.
If I have to change mentality then I will usually monitor/tweak the tempo/width/defensive line/closing down TI's too (ie if I go attacking I will often reduce width a bit and make sure my defensive line doesn't get too high).

It's these "feely" things that I think make managers successful... so if there is some formula out there to manage the tweaks I would love to read it.

I think I am probably beyond help... but if you think there is hope for me and you have the time then I would be grateful for any help you have to offer.

 

[CaptiveBridge]

I've read just about everything Google finds that relates to FM14, FM15 and FM16. I tend not to read anything from earlier versions since I assume things have changed. Bookmarked a lot of it, but the amount of information is so vast I've not revisited it all - I do revisit some as I feel my understanding changing/evolving.
There are some pieces that read like somebodies dissertation/thesis for some post-grad studies! I find it difficult to believe that all of that is necessary, but I read them anyway!

This sorta sounds like an information overload. And much of your post read like that you're still trying to settle on an identity, which is fine. We just have to decide on whether we want a specific style of play or have numerous styles.

I only expressed a preference for video in the hope that I find an ordinary someone who has started a game with absolutely no alterations and talked through his thinking/decisions. Something as simple as a match with commentary about what is happening and why. Theory is fine too (in theory!).
The trouble is many of the videos I have watched and blogs I have read already have quite different players whom I suspect make things all too easy for any tactic work.

I've been looking for videos, WorkTheSpace seems decent, but it's hard for me to say. His vids are like 20+ minutes and I've only done a few.

I think I have a reasonable grasp of balanced tactics. In general, the more attacking my mentality the fewer attacking roles I will assign (and vice versa). The fewer 'strata' I have covered by players the more fluid I will ask them to play (to close the vertical gaps). And I try to ensure that all players have an adjacent player on an adjacent strata at all times.
I'm sure there are exceptions to this (eg Long Ball up&over type play may well require stretched out strata with big vertical gaps in places) but I tend to avoid them.

Not the best advice I'll give, but throw this out. It's a nice framework to go off of if you know exactly what you want your team to do. Leaving TIs the same support roles with attacking mentalities will lead to a possessive style of game, attacking roles with attacking mentalities will yield a more urgent direct playstyle. It's not that you should have one over the other, it's just that it changes what you're telling the players are important in the role breakdown. For instance, on Attacking an AM(a) will look to constantly push up into the box, dribble on the ball, be a goal threat almost like a second striker; while an AM(s) is going to be looking to provide support, opt for a pass (albeit a penetrative pass due to Mentality), and do late runs instead of first time runs.

All that to say throw out that thinking until you've settled on a system and style of play.

I wanna watch the full game (I was watching full match for months, but lately decided not to bother since I don't seem to react correctly anyway) and be able to change tactics for the better or see/understand the thought process behind trouble shooting a tactic...
eg if its 35 mins in and they have a packed defence, and most of my shots are from around the edges of the area I wanna change that.
My 'research' to this point would tell me to use "work ball into box" to get closer shots... but also that if the defence is packed that this shout is probably not helpful (more time to pack the box further).
My own logic (and some reading supports this) tells me to draw the team out and hit them on the break to reduce numbers in the box - and I find this very difficult to achieve (this may be down to my players).
My interpretation of the FM theory is that I should pick a patient mentality (defensive/counter) and play a little deeper. Some possession would probably help to pull them about a bit, and maybe some roaming PI's or TI to help with the pulling. But I must have missed something somewhere, because it just does not seem possible to get more than 4 of their players to commit, leaving 7 to beat down the business end.

Another thing that is relative to the system and style you're playing with. Played a very aggressive pressing system with a 3-5-1-1 formation against a team that raced to a 4-2 lead over me in the first half by playing deep and narrow on the counter. They are already cautious and have a two goal lead, they have no reason to come out and attack. I already have two good dribblers on the field and one on the bench. Brought the third one on, went really narrow, told them to get forward as often as they could , had the striker set up to play wall passes, and my wide midfielders were switched to defend and send crosses from deep. The two very differing avenues of attack made it difficult to defend and we salvaged the game. Trying to draw a team out when they already had a two goal lead wouldn't work for me. All that is to say that how you unlock a team is relative to your personnel, system, and style of play.

Their wingers always manage to release the cross the instant that they get to the byeline... and there is always someone just arriving on the edge of the 6-yard box to finish (way ahead of his marker thanks to his super pacey attribute of about 11).

They're far more things that come into play when the ME decides that the player with a pace of 11 beats your defender to a cross. Just as how when you set up a player role, the game does not do it in isolation; the same when a player makes the run to get on a cross. Decisions (is it right for me to run forward or stay in place), Determination (do I try to get on the end of that cross), Concentration (paying attention to what's happening), Anticipation (where will that cross go? where will space be?), Work Rate (do i get in the thick of things and try to make something for the team?), Teamwork, Pace, Acceleration, Agility, Off The Ball, Bravery/Aggression(depending on the situation), Stamina Player Roles and Mentality, Morale, and others. Similar things will be checked with your defender also including Composure and swapping Off The Ball for Positioning. Anyhoo, going down this route will be straying from what I really want to get from you.

I now play pretty much by "feel"... I will often use a 4-4-1-1 tactic (heavily based on the TFF Battlemaster) - I find that with roles/duties this can play like so many different formations that it is a useful tactic to have.
I keep a 4-1-4-1 in reserve for similar reasons and a bit more help defensively.
And I experiment with asymmetric formations for the third... that I use when nothing seems to work.

My ideal (and the type of thing I always used since Championship Manager days) would be a kind of 3 at the back, with 2 wingbacks just in front, 3 cm's and 2 up front (0-2, 1-1 or even strikerless 2-0... not fussy).
Attacking would be a patient/lazy style, playing around at the back in my third/half of the pitch waiting to release a runner to break through and go 1 on 1.
Defending would be similar, contain deep in my half (drawing them out), soaking up pressure but not allowing anyone in the box (I know this is dangerous in FM16 with OP crosses).
But I'm a long way off of having that!

So here's the start, what sort of style do you want to play? It's fine having more than one style (you have three tactical slots anyway), but we need to settle on a style before we go forward. Style is far more than just a formation. Formations are the team's defensive positioning, but it's a highly malleable framework. You can get a 4-1-4-1 to play on the ball like a 3-4-3, a 3-5-2, etc by changing your Shape, Mentality, TIs, and PIs. So let's just ignore formations for now and just focus on style/philosophy.

Two things that I'd highly recommend you to read are Lines and Diamonds, I have a copy I can send to you. And this post on explaining player attributes:
http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/foot...aining/52157-player-attributes-explained.html

The player attributes thing helps to formulate the type of players you'll need for a system.

 

[Uwain]

"Information overload" - you are right! Sorry, I will try harder to be a bit more succinct.


Ok, I will read those (I have definitely read Lines and Diamonds and reference it often, but it wont hurt to read it all again. It doesn't look as though I have the other one bookmarked so will give that a read too). I find all of the attributes to be a little overwhelming (though obviously vital)... but it's slowly getting easier.


How do you get wall passes in FM? PPM "Plays with back to goal" on a DLF (who can pass) and "plays one-twos" on a AMC maybe?
I haven't really focused on PPM's either. I try to ensure they don't upset my style... but other than the fullbacks (gets forward often) and maybe IF's (cuts in) I don't generally look for specific PPM's.


If I knew how, I would create a standard setup to be a patient game. I can't give you an example as I don't watch football that much (I used to be a season ticket holder at Elm Park [Reading FC] if that helps explain anything?).

• When I have the ball move it about and make the opposition run about after it. I don't particularly care about possession, but when I have the ball I don't want to just give it away cheaply. Wait for a runner, and release him... or attack the final 3rd when numbers are even but not before. If I get into the final 3rd I want it to result in a high percentage shot every time.
• When they have the ball I want to contain them, not dive into tackles. Very high tackle success rate (when I go for a tackle its cos its on, not speculative). Force long shots. Keep them out of my box. If the tackle isn't on then we can hassle them a bit but without fully committing).

Sounds pretty defensive to me.Does any of that sound like a style/system? Possible to create?


I suspect I need another style for when this just doesn't work. But I'm not certain what a good contrast would be... a high/heavy press with direct urgent passing maybe? Heavy focus on wingers?
Not sure about that one.


Thanks for humouring me, I appreciate the help.

 

[CaptiveBridge]

How do you get wall passes in FM? PPM "Plays with back to goal" on a DLF (who can pass) and "plays one-twos" on a AMC maybe?

PPMs help, but all I did was give instructions to prefer passing over dribbling. So, DLF on support, dribble less. Also instructed to Move Into Channels and Roam, but that was more so to create space for the dribblers to move into, though it does allow him to move around and be a passing option.

I haven't really focused on PPM's either. I try to ensure they don't upset my style... but other than the fullbacks (gets forward often) and maybe IF's (cuts in) I don't generally look for specific PPM's.

PPMs can help refine a style, but aren't terribly important to set a framework.

If I knew how, I would create a standard setup to be a patient game. I can't give you an example as I don't watch football that much (I used to be a season ticket holder at Elm Park [Reading FC] if that helps explain anything?).

• When I have the ball move it about and make the opposition run about after it. I don't particularly care about possession, but when I have the ball I don't want to just give it away cheaply. Wait for a runner, and release him... or attack the final 3rd when numbers are even but not before. If I get into the final 3rd I want it to result in a high percentage shot every time.
• When they have the ball I want to contain them, not dive into tackles. Very high tackle success rate (when I go for a tackle its cos its on, not speculative). Force long shots. Keep them out of my box. If the tackle isn't on then we can hassle them a bit but without fully committing).

Cautious, passing, zonal, high tempo, low(ish) line of engagement. What about Closing Down? Creativity? Fluidity?

 

[WJ]

You've described a setup that doesn't take risks. That's a lower Mentality like Defensive or Counter. It'll affect and do everything you just said - not take risks.

 

[Uwain]

Not gone yet!

Haven't sussed it yet... I just wanted to reply back here since you were kind enough to respond to me!

So, I read L&D's a couple more times - honestly, it seems to make a bit more sense each time. The 2nd re-read I made a few very simple notes about how to achieve my boring, patient tactic that I described.

The attributes thing was useful too, and actually told me that most of my players were rubbish (severely lacking in background attributes)... I'm sure I read something like this before when I was looking for help years ago!!

Anyway, I'm still playing around with different things but not yet achieved anything like what I imagined.

I'm starting to think my preferred style is not all that important anyway... the difficultly is still with identifying what the AI changes that suddenly makes them such a lethal force... especially in the dying minutes of a game they are losing.

Is there a video anywhere that shows a complete match with commentary describing the AI's tactic, his changes and how to adapt?

I have lost so many games in the last 5 minutes of the match... even when I try and defend the 1-0 lead (which is only something I've started trying recently).

It is beginning to dawn on me that the only reliable way to achieve long term success is to grind out the money and status to get the best players and facilities (for youth) and then use more or less any balanced tactics and train up the kids. Which is not really the challenge I was looking for!

I was hoping somebody could help me identify a change in the AI
(ie "Look hes playing quicker, more direct passes with pin point accuracy and when his shot is deflected he is magically alone in the box for the rebound - dunno what happened to the otherwise reasonable defenders that are usually around here somewhere!?")
and then react with my own change
(ie build sleeping policemen all over the pitch to disrupt the passes, a brick wall between the goal posts and a magic bean for my striker to allow him to score in the open goal that he usually manages to miss from inside the 6 yard box).

You tend to lose your faith and become totally disillusioned when you spend 10+ hours a day everyday for weeks (if not months) reading, watching, trying, tweaking indeed hoping for some little hint from them silly little dots!!

I think I will start looking for my fork!

Thanks again.

 

[WJ]

It shouldn't even need to be rocket science. If you're 1-0 up with 5 mins to go, you know the AI will attack. Anyone will. Just sit back more. Use your counter tactic. Or your defensive tactic. Something.