Tactical problems

[Uwain]

I am this sad...

FYI current save game status... just to prove that I really have tried to spot wtf is going on!!

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Started 28th Jan... played 10 days, 4 hours... clues: 0

And this is just the latest save that I started because I thought I finally understood (tbf I have lasted longer at Reading than I usually do!).

 

[Uwain]

It shouldn't even need to be rocket science. If you're 1-0 up with 5 mins to go, you know the AI will attack. Anyone will. Just sit back more. Use your counter tactic. Or your defensive tactic. Something.

ikr...don't think I haven't tried this! I feel your pain... believe me!!

 

[WJ]

Cases like that I don't believe you need to spot anything. You know they'll start attacking right at the end. It doesn't matter what exactly they do even. You just need to be more cautious with your setup.

Edit: To expand a bit more, of course you can change to a defensive setup specific to what you see. It takes time and effort to watch and spot that though. So get a general setup that is just more cautious. It doesn't need to be a complete shut up shop, all 11 men in the box type setup. That's maybe taking it too far, giving up too much of the ball and giving them too much chance.

We often see tactics that either push a lot of players forward or (like an Attack duty on a AML/AMR) just leaves them forward. That's the sort of thing that gets punished when the AI attacks too.

That's why I suggest getting a good counter/defensive tactic that you know is well balanced and set up. Use that at the obvious moments. It won't be perfect for every situation, so if you do see something, tweak.

 

[Uwain]

When I'm trying to hold on to a lead I will generally:

• reduce mentality
• change fullbacks to defend (though this does tend to help them pin me back)
• drop my defensive line (rarely like to have it at its deepest setting though)
• play a bit narrower
• clear to flanks
• more direct passing
• stick to positions
• more disciplined
• sometimes play more structured (though this seems less necessary given the above changes)
• sometimes change midfield roles to defensive (not often though - maybe an improvement here?)

This can tend to mess up the fluidity/familiarity of the tactic; my understanding is that this can affect players decision making? So I often try to tweak the settings to get to at least "Accomplished".

Does that look like the right sort of thing to be doing?

 

[WJ]

You seem to really go overboard with this. Each Mentality already has its own defaults? Have you checked that just this isn't maybe enough?

Dropping Mentality means you're ALREADY sitting with a deeper D-line than before. You're already more direct at the back. And more disciplined. And narrower. And less risk taking.

Although, a lot of your changes are strange and relates to on the ball instructions only. Why narrower, but clearing to flanks who are narrow and probably then on top of players? Why so direct, because all I see is giving the ball straight back.


Just change the Mentality and a few duties to suit. And as I said, this is where a decent plan B more defensive setup is a good idea.

 

[psvpingu]

I tend to adjust mentality, change attack to support or support to defence etc.. and retain possession and untick killer balls etc...just to not give the ball away.
Like WJ says dont over do it as mentality changes certain aspects anyway, i go time waste as well to run the clock down

 

[Uwain]

Hmmm... I could be over doing it I suppose... I will try less in future.

I take my lead from the graphics... though I'm not certain they are correct.
Eg, On standard mentality the defensive line for Normal is shown almost at the centre circle... if I switch mentality down to Counter this line drops, as expected.
I assume that if I just want lower mentality I can retain almost the same defensive line by increasing the defensive line to slightly higher (since graphically they are quite similar).

Is that wrong? Does that make it less defensive?

I suppose what I need to know is whether the mentality changes affect other hidden things that cannot be changed any other way?
I have been working under the assumption that the mentality does change something hidden about how patient/eager players will be... but maybe this is entirely wrong? Maybe mentality is just a set of preset TI's?
Maybe changing the relative TI's with a standard mentality you can also achieve the exact same defensive or attacking game?

My latest theory is that if I just worry about matching the position of my midfield line with theirs and have a stronger midfield (more people?) and also keep width close enough to stop my players running too far across the field (without opening up huge gaps in the middle) then this is about the best I can hope for.

I applied this thinking to my last 4 matches and it seemed to have an effect - though the sample size is too small to be conclusive. But I had a great sense of achievement coming from 1-0 down to winning 2-1... feeling like my changes were making a difference - though not entirely sure why!!
Or pegging Chelsea back to a 2-2 draw with 2 minutes to go and being silly and staying in overload hoping to outgun them... losing 3-2 and kicking myself for being greedy.
This is the type of game play I was looking for.

Anyway, off season takes me a good day or two so it will be a while before I have any more matches to test my theory.

 

[WJ]

It's pointless to think in those terms. One notch higher D-Line on Counter won't be the same as Standard.

More importantly - it does not matter. If your line is too high, drop it. If it's too deep, push higher.

The entire thing about Mentality is that it is a risk modifier. That's what Mentality is. The rest are just default settings that are adjusted.

 

[Uwain]

I'm gonna change tack cos my theory was a fail (or it's quite difficult to match midfield lines with diamonds - unless I change my formation every time... and I'm trying to avoid that if I can).

I think I should probably have a tactic for each tactic described in section 8 of L&D's and then concentrate on identifying which of these my opposition is using (which I think I'm getting a bit better at finally).

The boring/patient tactic I described earlier probably fits into "Bunker Tactics".

...If your line is too high, drop it. If it's too deep, push higher.

Ok, so if they play patient possession football I should move my line higher right?
And if they play more direct quick football I should consider sitting deeper and just waiting for them?

So, If I we both play possession and both have high lines it's time for me to switch to quick direct football, right?

I think I'm finally getting a grip of this thing - my results aren't improving much but I feel like I can see a way forward! It still feels too complicated to me, but I guess footy is complicated?

Is there some way to make my defensive players play at a lower tempo than my creative/attacking players? Maybe a lower tempo with the Be More Expressive shout takes care of this?
Because I favour a lower tempo, but when it comes to breaking down a stubborn defence it can be useful to quicken the final attack (I read that on here somewhere!).

 

[WJ]

Ok, so if they play patient possession football I should move my line higher right?
And if they play more direct quick football I should consider sitting deeper and just waiting for them?

So, If I we both play possession and both have high lines it's time for me to switch to quick direct football, right?

I'm literally ONLY saying that if your line is too high, drop it deeper and if it's too deep, push it higher.

If you're leaving a gap between your midfield and defence and an opposition player is finding a lot of space there, it's a clear, clear, clear sign that your line is too deep, so THEN you can push higher up, to name just one possible solution.

If you keep giving up balls over the top to strikers out pacing our defenders, it's again a sure sign of not enough pressure on midfielders but also a line that's too high.

I stay far away from blanket statements of "always" do this and rather rely on what my eyes are telling me.

 

[CaptiveBridge]

Like WJ said, there are multiple ways to skin a cat, and your answer is dependent on what is happening to you. In supply chain we have this obnoxiously simple tool called the 5 whys, keep asking why to a problem/answer to help identify the root cause. Balls over the top break my line, why are they able to do this? They have a playmaker playing those passes, why? He has too much space, why? etc or the thought can take you down Balls over the top break my line, why are they able to do this? They're very structured and got men sitting back and everyone booting it under pressure to a fast striker, Why is he out pacing my defence?

Sometimes **** happens and you just can't cope with it, but it's more important to work your way back from what's happening.

Is there some way to make my defensive players play at a lower tempo than my creative/attacking players? Maybe a lower tempo with the Be More Expressive shout takes care of this?
Because I favour a lower tempo, but when it comes to breaking down a stubborn defence it can be useful to quicken the final attack (I read that on here somewhere!).

Tempo is shared across the team, however passing distance and player mentality isn't, so you can adjust those. Quickening the attack is one way; if you have great dribblers, you have another option; aerial presence is another option; long shots are another option; pace through the middle vs pace out wide give different options. Everything is relative to your system, personnel, and the opponents.

 

[Uwain]

Am I finally getting it?

I'm literally ONLY saying that if your line is too high, drop it deeper and if it's too deep, push it higher.

If you're leaving a gap between your midfield and defence and an opposition player is finding a lot of space there, it's a clear, clear, clear sign that your line is too deep, so THEN you can push higher up, to name just one possible solution.

If you keep giving up balls over the top to strikers out pacing our defenders, it's again a sure sign of not enough pressure on midfielders but also a line that's too high.

I stay far away from blanket statements of "always" do this and rather rely on what my eyes are telling me.

Yes!
Coincidentally I had just started doing something like this... I started by looking for space between their lines and making sure I had a man in it.
Combined with trying to disrupt their build-up (closing down possession, or awaiting direct balls) I started finding some success and it felt like I was actually influencing the result! It's only been the last 8 games, but I'm feeling optimistic.
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Still experiencing problems though... and I feel much of my success is owed to the improved players (although the team comparison is not that favourable).
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It seems the AI was very quick to start presenting teams that didn't play an easily identifiable style (or it changed often? Does the AI change very often during a match?).
So I started watching the spaces I was leaving (though my tactic already tried to occupy every strata/line) or where I was low on numbers/coverage.

It seems that some teams - like the last match against Southampton - are very good at covering spaces and still overloading the space in-front of my defence... as well as shutting down everything I put on the wings - they were on-fire!
In the last 15 mins or so they even switched to be strikerless!! First time I've noticed the AI do this. I probably should have switched a defender for a more attacking player - but I was a bit confused tbh!

This is all with a downloaded 4-4-1-1 tactic for now.
It worked ok by itself... but with my tweaking the defensive line and sometimes the directness of my own football to suit the opposition it seems a little bit more solid.

My understanding now is that all of the instructions are just a translation of the old "sliders" system (though I don't recall fiddling with sliders I have read about them... I remember positioning dots/players all around the pitch in relation to the ball position, but not sliders?).
Although I'm not familiar with sliders I can understand this type of "fly-by-wire" approach... tweaking a single role/duty/TI/PI can give the "team" a better understanding of how to approach the match and impact far more than I was previously expecting by making things work (or break!).
Hence, apply the instructions when and if you need them and observe the effect!

So, (I think) setting a defensive line of "slightly higher" doesn't really relate to any distance/position on the pitch... it just means a bit higher than normal... I completely misunderstood this! And the picture made things look more objective to me - hence trying to get lines in similar positions for different mentalities... and getting horrible match results!

I realise this is everything you (and others) have been saying all along... but my thought process was so far from this I was not understanding it at all (and maybe I'm still not!!).

So, do you reckon I'm starting to get a grip of this thing? Anything else I should read to help hammer this home?

Also, any tips you have for dealing with these super human-teams would be useful!

 

[WJ]

I'm glad you're on the right track. The sliders are still under the hood and is represented by what you see now. It does seem like you're "getting" it at least.

 

[Uwain]

Like WJ said, there are multiple ways to skin a cat, and your answer is dependent on what is happening to you. In supply chain we have this obnoxiously simple tool called the 5 whys, keep asking why to a problem/answer to help identify the root cause. Balls over the top break my line, why are they able to do this? They have a playmaker playing those passes, why? He has too much space, why? etc or the thought can take you down Balls over the top break my line, why are they able to do this? They're very structured and got men sitting back and everyone booting it under pressure to a fast striker, Why is he out pacing my defence?

Sometimes **** happens and you just can't cope with it, but it's more important to work your way back from what's happening.



Tempo is shared across the team, however passing distance and player mentality isn't, so you can adjust those. Quickening the attack is one way; if you have great dribblers, you have another option; aerial presence is another option; long shots are another option; pace through the middle vs pace out wide give different options. Everything is relative to your system, personnel, and the opponents.

I am starting to take more notice of specific OI's... but they scare me a bit... I'm worried about the damage it can do to my system as a whole... but sometimes it's obvious that there is a single pivot point and he must be stopped whatever the cost - that ones easy to spot!

It's the fast, tricky buggers (eg Eden Hazard) that I really don't know what to do with... so I generally just hope my system can deal with them!

When I set out on this journey I really had no idea this game was going to be so difficult - indeed, I still feel there must be something we are all missing and we are making it much more difficult than it needs to be!!

 

[jee]

I'm glad to see this thread actually helped someone. Not me, but someone else.
One year later I'm still at the same point, post 99, which sends us to post 34, which basically is the first post. So, after one year, I'm experiencing the same: I start well and, at some point, I start conceding conceding and conceding and I don't know what to do. Any change I apply fails.
I'll keep trying.

 

[Uwain]

I'm glad to see this thread actually helped someone. Not me, but someone else.
One year later I'm still at the same point, post 99, which sends us to post 34, which basically is the first post. So, after one year, I'm experiencing the same: I start well and, at some point, I start conceding conceding and conceding and I don't know what to do. Any change I apply fails.
I'll keep trying.

I have more or less surrendered now. There just seems to be too much to do... and even when I'm taking hours per match there is still an AI manager that can somehow turn his useless failing team into an unstoppable force just for my match.

I don't know if you are using individual pre-match/half-time/post-match team talks? But getting these right, and getting a few green/positive body language on the board seems to make a noticeable difference. Even this can be a time consuming process.

But even when I get the talks right there are still these very strange/random results (sometimes even bad streaks).

It is much quicker to save scum and just replay games where you feel cheated - and once you start down this road there seems little point in playing any more.

I really wanted to believe that it was possible to read every game and make a positive difference... but even when I was getting it seemingly right the AI would pull a 35 yard scorcher out of his hat to level the match and put me on tilt!!

Until I can find a personal tutor who can coach me I think I would rather waste my time some other, more fulfilling way.
Now, what are them Kerbals up to?

Good luck to you though... hope you find more satisfaction than me!!

 

[jee]

I encourage you to post here:

https://community.sigames.com/forum/19-tactics-training-strategies-discussion/

There many people who will be patient and try to help. Not a guarantee of success but give it a try.

Edit: I'm not saying people here don't try to help, but, definitively, there are less people here...

So many people failing (and putting effort) may make someone think about it...

 

[Uwain]

Thanks

I'll take a look... it can't hurt to waste a few more days at this stage!
Ta

 

[WJ]

I'll take a look... it can't hurt to waste a few more days at this stage!
Ta

Just please read the stickied thread that lists what info is needed before you post a thread. And be receptive to the advice given.

 

[jee]

I'll take a look... it can't hurt to waste a few more days at this stage!
Ta

And be aware in football manager matches are won or lost due to tactical decisions.