The Arsenal Thread

[fabregas2]

So you want him to explain his argument by leaving out two of the most relevant pieces of information that can be used to support it....How does that make sense?

Because that's everyone's incredibly close minded argument. Man United went trophyless last season so they must be on the decline. We've declined from where we were a few years ago but how does that mean we're still declining? We've sold players each year for a few years now and we still do better than expected. How are we still declining? I don't know much about Napoli so I can't comment on their potential but I know they have some quality players but aren't exactly challenging for the Serie A title. They were in the CL last season but they aren't this season so why aren't they on the decline?

 

[Alcaraz]

Because that's everyone's argument. Man United went trophyless last season so they must be on the decline. We've declined from where we were a few years ago but how does that mean we're still declining? We've sold players each year for a few years now and we still do better than expected. How are we still declining? I don't know much about Napoli so I can't comment on their potential but I know they have some quality players but aren't exactly challenging for the Serie A title. They were in the CL last season but they aren't this season so why aren't they on the decline?

Manchester United went trophyless for ONE season. That season they ran City to the wire and lets face it, threw away the title in the closing stages. This summer they have shown ambition by recruiting Kagawa and RVP- two top players making it highly unlikely that such seasons will be repeated again.

People say that because its true. Arsenal have gone trophyless for many seasons now. They have shown very little ambition in the transfer market to improve their squad-- Replacing quality instead of retaining and adding to it

 

[fabregas2]

Manchester United went trophyless for ONE season. That season they ran City to the wire and lets face it, threw away the title in the closing stages. This summer they have shown ambition by recruiting Kagawa and RVP- two top players making it highly unlikely that such seasons will be repeated again.

People say that because its true. Arsenal have gone trophyless for many seasons now. They have shown very little ambition in the transfer market to improve their squad-- Replacing quality instead of retaining and adding to it

Not arguing with that because it's true although we signed a quality player in Cazorla this time around . But all these point towards stagnation rather than decline

 

[Alcaraz]

Not arguing with that because it's true although we signed a quality player in Cazorla this time around . But all these point towards stagnation rather than decline

Fair enough really...I just found it strange you were asking someone to formulate their argument without mentioning probably the two most relevant pieces of information. I never intended to go into whether Arsenal were really declining or not..

And yes Cazorla is awesome

 

[zzeezzy]

Cazorla is a class signing but I still fear for Arsenal and where the goals will come from this season, I am not convinced at all Giroud and Podolski are players who can get the amount of goals RVP did last season even between them.

 

[Lol_101]

Arsenal are a team in decline, and Napoli are a team with huge potential (and it looks like they are going to build the team around him)

i'll probably say stagnation is the right word. i mean if we are on decline, then what is Liverpool in ? they've been in decline for a few years now, mainly since post-rafa era.

 

[joejoejoey]

Arsenal are a team in decline, and Napoli are a team with huge potential (and it looks like they are going to build the team around him)

But Napoli are in the Serie A, which has declined somewhat.

I think he would much rather play in full stadiums.

 

[Athe~]

But Napoli are in the Serie A, which has declined somewhat.

I think he would much rather play in full stadiums.

Then he definitely shouldn't move to Arsenal.

 

[GodCubed]

Because that's everyone's incredibly close minded argument. Man United went trophyless last season so they must be on the decline. We've declined from where we were a few years ago but how does that mean we're still declining? We've sold players each year for a few years now and we still do better than expected. How are we still declining? I don't know much about Napoli so I can't comment on their potential but I know they have some quality players but aren't exactly challenging for the Serie A title. They were in the CL last season but they aren't this season so why aren't they on the decline?

You only do 'better than expected' because you regularly lower expectations amongst everyone by selling on your best players. You're declining since each year you get less and less likely to challenge for the title. Your competitors are improving and strengthening, and Arsenal are not.

 

[fabregas2]

You only do 'better than expected' because you regularly lower expectations amongst everyone by selling on your best players. You're declining since each year you get less and less likely to challenge for the title. Your competitors are improving and strengthening, and Arsenal are not.

I think you'll find we did better last year than the year before that even though we sold 2 of our best players. Even in this trophyless period we're having, we've mounted serious title challenges in previous seasons only to fade away late on, make of that what you will. Our competitors are improving and strengthening because they have more money to tempt players so they obviously look like title challengers whereas we continue as normal trying to secure the best deals available and making the most of what we've got. Ask yourselves where we'd be in City and Chelsea didn't get sugardaddy chairmen

 

[GodCubed]

I think you'll find we did better last year than the year before that even though we sold 2 of our best players. Even in this trophyless period we're having, we've mounted serious title challenges in previous seasons only to fade away late on, make of that what you will. Our competitors are improving and strengthening because they have more money to tempt players so they obviously look like title challengers whereas we continue as normal trying to secure the best deals available and making the most of what we've got. Ask yourselves where we'd be in City and Chelsea didn't get sugardaddy chairmen

Better last year than the year before that does not equal a trend. Your trend has been downward in recent times, and if we made a line graph of your positions the line would slope downwards, individual seasons in which you did decently notwithstanding. Moreover, you have AGAIN lost your top players this year, and whilst Cazorla is an impressive addition, it remains to be seen where Alex Song's replacement is, and whether Giroud and Podolski can fill Van Persie's massive shooting boots.

Using 'Serious title challenge' and 'fell away late on' in the same sentence creates an oxymoron. When Villa were finishing sixth after being in the top three by Christmas and crashing and burning, in hindsight we were never 'serious' challengers for the top four purely because we kept on falling away late on.

More money? Arsenal are ****** rolling in cash. You just don't spend it. Arsenal could spend shitloads on every two-bit left back that comes along and still be the only club to turn a profit. Besides, I'm not arguing WHY you don't look like serious title challengers; all I'm saying is you don't, and whether it's because you spend money or not, you don't.

Who the **** cares what might've happened if City and Chelsea didn't have rich chairmen? Who prepares for hypothetical situations that happened in the past? Fact is, they do, and the fact is they're regularly winning stuff.

 

[GodCubed]

Does anyone else see the horrific levels of irony in that I'm arguing about the symptoms of Arsenal's decline partially being rooted in unreplaced stars with an Arsenal fan called "fabregas2"?

 

[Athe~]

Does anyone else see the horrific levels of irony in that I'm arguing about the symptoms of Arsenal's decline partially being rooted in unreplaced stars with an Arsenal fan called "fabregas2"?

Even more so when you consider that Arsenal isn't winning trophies, while on the other hand Fabregas won two (or is it three?) since he left.

 

[kitchin75]

Even more so when you consider that Arsenal isn't winning trophies, while on the other hand Fabregas won two (or is it three?) since he left.

2 ithink world club thing and spain fa cup i think

 

[GodCubed]

Even more so when you consider that Arsenal isn't winning trophies, while on the other hand Fabregas won two (or is it three?) since he left.

2 ithink world club thing and spain fa cup i think

Meh, that's a little irrelevant since the Spanish league is a whole new ball game. We're discussing Arsenal's decline here, and they don't have the luxury of being one of the top two teams in a league where they dominate everything from revenue to on-field performance. No level of investment will ever take Arsenal to that level because the English league is just that much fairer than La Liga, so it's a pretty moot point.

 

[Athe~]

2 ithink world club thing and spain fa cup i think

Euro Super Cup too I believe, although they may also have won the Spanish Super Cup, which is no easy feat considering they face Madrid...

Meh, that's a little irrelevant since the Spanish league is a whole new ball game. We're discussing Arsenal's decline here, and they don't have the luxury of being one of the top two teams in a league where they dominate everything from revenue to on-field performance. No level of investment will ever take Arsenal to that level because the English league is just that much fairer than La Liga, so it's a pretty moot point.

Oh I'm not comparing both leagues, but Arsenal could clearly be one of the top teams in England but apparently choose not to, and players opt to move in order to achieve success, and even if they often fail to do so on an individual level, many have gone on to grab a medal or two (****, even Hleb won more trophies than Arsenal in recent years...). It's their (Arsenal's) seeming lack of ambition that prevents them from occupying a position of privilege rather than lack of money, as some have claimed.

 

[Subtle]

Arsenal are in decline precisely because they're not going for players of Cavani's calibre. When you're signing 3rd tier (1st= world elite aka Iniesta, 2nd= amazing but not quite as good aka Falcao, 3rd= good, solid players) players like Arteta, tp replace 1st and 2nd tier choices, naturally your standard of play will decrease unless you have some truly exceptiona players come through the academy. Cazorla is arguably the only 2nd tier player you've signed in the past 3 transfer windows and the only other one that you've signed since 06/07 that's still there is Vermaelen.

There's a certain ironic circularity in that the way to become a much more attractive place for top quality players is to, er, sign top quality players.

 

[Montanaro]

Wtf have i started...an innocent comment about Giroud turns into this?

 

[fabregas2]

Better last year than the year before that does not equal a trend. Your trend has been downward in recent times, and if we made a line graph of your positions the line would slope downwards, individual seasons in which you did decently notwithstanding. Moreover, you have AGAIN lost your top players this year, and whilst Cazorla is an impressive addition, it remains to be seen where Alex Song's replacement is, and whether Giroud and Podolski can fill Van Persie's massive shooting boots.

Using 'Serious title challenge' and 'fell away late on' in the same sentence creates an oxymoron. When Villa were finishing sixth after being in the top three by Christmas and crashing and burning, in hindsight we were never 'serious' challengers for the top four purely because we kept on falling away late on.

More money? Arsenal are ****** rolling in cash. You just don't spend it. Arsenal could spend shitloads on every two-bit left back that comes along and still be the only club to turn a profit. Besides, I'm not arguing WHY you don't look like serious title challengers; all I'm saying is you don't, and whether it's because you spend money or not, you don't.

Who the **** cares what might've happened if City and Chelsea didn't have rich chairmen? Who prepares for hypothetical situations that happened in the past? Fact is, they do, and the fact is they're regularly winning stuff.

I didn't say we were on the rise, I just said we weren't on the decline and actually for the last few seasons our trend shows a progression followed by a regression. And yes I would say Villa were serious challengers for to break into the top four, that would be like saying Newcastle weren't serious challengers last year and whilst we're financially secure, we're not rolling in cash I think you've got Arsenal confused with man city. And Arteta has shown he could be song's replacement, even though I really hope he hasn't been intended to be song's replacement. In any case, I wouldn't be much bothered if we didn't sign a replacement for Song but instead signed a striker or defender.

@Subtle- When have Arsenal ever signed "class" players? It's funny you mentioned Vermaelen as a "2nd tier" player even though he was barely heard of till we signde him. You also ignored Arshavin who had been linked with a few top clubs before we signed him.

 

[rephlex]

Well, there are so few days left that won't happen. Wenger hates being pushed on transfer fees beyond what he feels is reasonable, and you just don't have time to negotiate unless a deal is basically already in the pipeline at this point.

I find it very hard as an Arsenal fan to not feel we're in decline to be honest. Yes, we actually signed players this year, but losing Nasri, Fabregas and RVP in consecutive summers has to give the other players the sense of 'Where is this ship going?', just as it does the fans. I think it's great that the club is financially secure, but if we're relying on CL spots to keep the team together then one "bad" year with a couple of unlucky games then it come have gone an entirely different way.

Think about what might have happened if other teams took their advantage at the end of last season and secured third instead of us, for example. It's all fine saying "yes, but they didn't, we did", but as a team you want to put yourself in a situation where you are dictating if you win or not - not relying on your rivals to lose.