The Arsenal Thread

[GodCubed]

Oh I'm not comparing both leagues, but Arsenal could clearly be one of the top teams in England but apparently choose not to, and players opt to move in order to achieve success, and even if they often fail to do so on an individual level, many have gone on to grab a medal or two (****, even Hleb won more trophies than Arsenal in recent years...). It's their (Arsenal's) seeming lack of ambition that prevents them from occupying a position of privilege rather than lack of money, as some have claimed.

Let's not break into the realms of hyperbole here, Arsenal are clearly still one of the top teams in England and probably still will be in the near to medium-term future, but their lack of drive will, and has, prevented them from kicking out of their current funk. I don't know what Arsenal's board is playing at, but I'm pretty sure this ain't Wenger's fault...

I didn't say we were on the rise, I just said we weren't on the decline and actually for the last few seasons our trend shows a progression followed by a regression. And yes I would say Villa were serious challengers for to break into the top four, that would be like saying Newcastle weren't serious challengers last year and whilst we're financially secure, we're not rolling in cash I think you've got Arsenal confused with man city. And Arteta has shown he could be song's replacement, even though I really hope he hasn't been intended to be song's replacement. In any case, I wouldn't be much bothered if we didn't sign a replacement for Song but instead signed a striker or defender.

A rise followed by a fall is still a fall. That's like saying our current economic recession isn't a recession because we had a decade of boom years before it. Moreover, just running to stand still whilst everyone else is improving is pretty much the same as getting worse; if your standards remain the same whilst the overall standard is raised, you are by comparison worse than you were.

No, no, no. Villa and Newcastle are completely different things. Villa did the same thing each year: destroy everyone in the first half of the season, then run out of steam because O'Neill didn't know what rotation and a squad was and finish 6th. Newcastle had a season where they were consistently in and around the top four, only just missing out by a whisker.

Arsenal aren't rolling in cash? Christ, educate yourself. You're just about the only club making a profit in the Prem. You're not backed by the pretty much limitless funds of Mansour like City, but don't kid yourself, you still have a pretty penny to spend. Arteta is not Alex Song's replacement. Just no. Your wish to sign another defender instead of a critically important holding midfielder is just bonkers.

 

[Subtle]

@Subtle- When have Arsenal ever signed "class" players?

?

The reason you need to sign big names is because you've proven over the last couple of years that you are unable to hold onto those that you develop. If you can't keep players when they're starting to play to their best and you don't sign any big names, then why the **** is a player like Cavani going to join you?

The bottom line is that your squad is definitely much worse than it was 2 years ago, your league ambitions are lower and it's beginning to look like you may not be able to attract the same class of player as before.

 

[fabregas2]

Let's not break into the realms of hyperbole here, Arsenal are clearly still one of the top teams in England and probably still will be in the near to medium-term future, but their lack of drive will, and has, prevented them from kicking out of their current funk. I don't know what Arsenal's board is playing at, but I'm pretty sure this ain't Wenger's fault...



A rise followed by a fall is still a fall. That's like saying our current economic recession isn't a recession because we had a decade of boom years before it. Moreover, just running to stand still whilst everyone else is improving is pretty much the same as getting worse; if your standards remain the same whilst the overall standard is raised, you are by comparison worse than you were.

No, no, no. Villa and Newcastle are completely different things. Villa did the same thing each year: destroy everyone in the first half of the season, then run out of steam because O'Neill didn't know what rotation and a squad was and finish 6th. Newcastle had a season where they were consistently in and around the top four, only just missing out by a whisker.

Arsenal aren't rolling in cash? Christ, educate yourself. You're just about the only club making a profit in the Prem. You're not backed by the pretty much limitless funds of Mansour like City, but don't kid yourself, you still have a pretty penny to spend. Arteta is not Alex Song's replacement. Just no. Your wish to sign another defender instead of a critically important holding midfielder is just bonkers.

A rise followed by a fall is a fall so does that mean we're on the rise since we rose last season? We've stagnated in terms of the overall standard but then we haven't remained the same depending on when you're comparing us to. If you choose to compare us to when we were challenging for trophies then yes it's quite clear we've declined but the past seven years, we've stayed at around the same position and seeing as it was in that period that Man city rose, wouldn't that mean we also rose to stay in the same position or we would have fallen into the Europa League places?

The season I remember, Villa were strong contenders and pushed Arsenal all the way through and were still in it in the second half of the season iirc.

Making profits doesn't mean we're rolling in cash. If we were rolling in cash, we'd be spending that cash in the faith we'd still have a lot leftover to roll in. If we were rolling in cash, we'd have cleared all debts. I didn't say Arteta was Song's replacement but he's done a pretty good job so far and our defence has looked alright although only 2 games have been played. I think we need a right back and a striker more than we need a DM. That's my opinion. Why? Because Jenkinson is **** and we look vulnerable without Sagna down the right. Giroud hasn't convinced me yet although he still has time too and atm his backup is chamakh so yes we need a striker more than a DM.

?

The reason you need to sign big names is because you've proven over the last couple of years that you are unable to hold onto those that you develop. If you can't keep players when they're starting to play to their best and you don't sign any big names, then why the **** is a player like Cavani going to join you?

The bottom line is that your squad is definitely much worse than it was 2 years ago, your league ambitions are lower and it's beginning to look like you may not be able to attract the same class of player as before.

We've never been known for signing big names and I doubt that's going to start now. We've shown we can develop players so obviously we're going to keep doing that and Cavani would join us because we're still in a better position and in a better league than Napoli.

 

[Mike.]

Arsenal are rolling in cash. Anyone who reads their financial quarterly reports will see this. They certainly have far more spending power than they pretend to. Over the last 7 years overall quality and ambitions of the club have declined.

You might be in the same place or thereabouts league wise, but in terms of actually winning the title, you have fallen away.

 

[ajt09]

No. No no no, they need a Song replacement more than anything as stated. An ideal replacement imo would be someone like Tiote. He's already settled into the pace of the premiership, and would more than adequately fill the gap left by Song. And if a bid big enough went in, there's a chance Ashley wouldn't turn it down, even though Tiote has said he's committed to Newcastle. If that hole isn't filled, Arsenal will suffer

 

[fabregas2]

Arsenal are rolling in cash. Anyone who reads their financial quarterly reports will see this. They certainly have far more spending power than they pretend to. Over the last 7 years overall quality and ambitions of the club have declined.

You might be in the same place or thereabouts league wise, but in terms of actually winning the title, you have fallen away.

I agree about having more money we than we pretend to but we're really not rolling in cash.

No. No no no, they need a Song replacement more than anything as stated. An ideal replacement imo would be someone like Tiote. He's already settled into the pace of the premiership, and would more than adequately fill the gap left by Song. And if a bid big enough went in, there's a chance Ashley wouldn't turn it down, even though Tiote has said he's committed to Newcastle. If that hole isn't filled, Arsenal will suffer

Suffer in terms of what, a player to break up plays or the assists Song contributed?

 

[Subtle]

You have my sympathies by the way (well as much as I'd ever give a Gooner ;D) because it's never nice to watch you club slowly drop away from your rivals. However, you've got to face facts and not try to deny that you're in a decline. I'm still amazed by how readily most Arsenal fans have lowered their expectations and basically settled for getting into the top 4. We did it last year but I think most of us would have been pretty disappointed with the season had it not been for the FA cup and the CL, and we tolerated it because it was a short term thing. This year the club has acknowledged that the team needed reinvigoration, splashed the cash and we're well on our way back to fighting for the top spot. Now I'm not suggesting that Arsenal go out and splurge the insane amount of cash we have, but you need to acknowledge that you've sold your best players and go out and buy some real replacements. Relying on speculative transfers to fill that gap is very risky and if it fails, you will inevitably decline. It's a lot better to think: "**** I'm falling, better pull the parachute cord" at 100ft than it is at 10.

Ok, let's use an analogy. Wenger is a contestant on this year's Apprentice. Alan Sugar has given him £10,000 to go out, get some quality merchandise and achieve success. On day 1, Wenger invests in a variety of leads and ends up getting a set of classy Armani suits. He sells them off for a cool 50% raise, now he has the choice to use that money to go out and get some Luis Vuitton or invest in a set of up and coming brands. He does the latter and returns at the end of day 2 with a new set of suits. Whilst he has a good chance of turning a profit again, he finds that he can only get himself into Next and M&S because his suits aren't a high enough quality to compete in Liberty and Oxford Street. Alan Sugar's going to call him a plonker, because he took a set of excellent, reputable suits that opened the door to higher competition and replaced them with solid but much less inspiring ones. He forgot that he isn't playing moneyball, these aren't raw numbers on a spreadsheet: if you wheel and deal at mid level and never reinvest in high quality stock, you will forever be stuck selling polyester out of the back of a van rather than soft, velvety wool blends from a shiny boutique!

 

[Subtle]

We've never been known for signing big names and I doubt that's going to start now. We've shown we can develop players so obviously we're going to keep doing that and Cavani would join us because we're still in a better position and in a better league than Napoli.

In terms of developing talent, you don't seem to be able to keep it, so you need to invest in bringing some in. In a circular way, that should actually help convince some of your homegrown talent to stay as well.

In terms of being better than Napoli, you're forgetting that Cavani is very hot property in Europe right now. If he chooses to move, he could attract offers from some of the best clubs on the continent.

 

[GodCubed]

A rise followed by a fall is a fall so does that mean we're on the rise since we rose last season? We've stagnated in terms of the overall standard but then we haven't remained the same depending on when you're comparing us to. If you choose to compare us to when we were challenging for trophies then yes it's quite clear we've declined but the past seven years, we've stayed at around the same position and seeing as it was in that period that Man city rose, wouldn't that mean we also rose to stay in the same position or we would have fallen into the Europa League places?

The season I remember, Villa were strong contenders and pushed Arsenal all the way through and were still in it in the second half of the season iirc.

Making profits doesn't mean we're rolling in cash. If we were rolling in cash, we'd be spending that cash in the faith we'd still have a lot leftover to roll in. If we were rolling in cash, we'd have cleared all debts. I didn't say Arteta was Song's replacement but he's done a pretty good job so far and our defence has looked alright although only 2 games have been played. I think we need a right back and a striker more than we need a DM. That's my opinion. Why? Because Jenkinson is **** and we look vulnerable without Sagna down the right. Giroud hasn't convinced me yet although he still has time too and atm his backup is chamakh so yes we need a striker more than a DM.

You're not on the rise. At best, you've stayed the same level, and as I explained that's practically speaking the same as a decline if everyone else is getting better. Chelsea had a bad domestic season last year (and yet still won more trophies than Arsenal) and have strengthened a lot since then. You've fallen from a team competing for the title to a team competing for the top four. If that doesn't constitute a fall then I don't know what does.

Lol no. Take it from me, Villa were not contenders past about February.

That's the whole **** point of my argument. You've got loads of money, but you ain't spending it. Why? Nobody's quite sure, but I suspect the board are quite happy making money without reinvesting it into quality players to improve. They get their dividends, why should they care how the club does on the pitch so long as that money doesn't start to fall?

Arteta is not Song's replacement, and nor does he fill Song's role on the pitch. Two completely different players.

 

[ajt09]

I agree about having more money we than we pretend to but we're really not rolling in cash.



Suffer in terms of what, a player to break up plays or the assists Song contributed?

Well he's got a very high work rate, willing to put his body on the line, ability to break up the opponents possession, and on top of that has good technical ability. He would improve the side. Yeah he's not a goal scorer but would definately improve the side. but it's about dam time the board grew a pair of balls and splashed out on at least one big name striker instead of counting the pennies. Even Osamov (or whatever his name is-can't spell it) wrote an open letter slating them

 

[fabregas2]

No no I don't think we're going to compete for the league this year (even though I said so 2 weeks ago) and the reason Arsenal fans have settled for a CL place is because we're facing facts as you say and we're not deluding ourselves that we're going to compete with the Manchester clubs. In the past 12 years we've declined in terms of ambitions but in the past 7 we haven't really.

 

[fabregas2]

Well he's got a very high work rate, willing to put his body on the line, ability to break up the opponents possession, and on top of that has good technical ability. He would improve the side. Yeah he's not a goal scorer but would definately improve the side. but it's about dam time the board grew a pair of balls and splashed out on at least one big name striker instead of counting the pennies

He's also lazy and ill-disciplined, gives possession away far too much for a deep lying player and no I wouldn't say he's got a high work rate

You're not on the rise. At best, you've stayed the same level, and as I explained that's practically speaking the same as a decline if everyone else is getting better. Chelsea had a bad domestic season last year (and yet still won more trophies than Arsenal) and have strengthened a lot since then. You've fallen from a team competing for the title to a team competing for the top four. If that doesn't constitute a fall then I don't know what does.

Lol no. Take it from me, Villa were not contenders past about February.

That's the whole **** point of my argument. You've got loads of money, but you ain't spending it. Why? Nobody's quite sure, but I suspect the board are quite happy making money without reinvesting it into quality players to improve. They get their dividends, why should they care how the club does on the pitch so long as that money doesn't start to fall?

Arteta is not Song's replacement, and nor does he fill Song's role on the pitch. Two completely different players.

I'm not arguing we're on the rise, i'm just using what you said to prove we're not on the declined. We have declined but no we're not on the declined or we'd be preparing for Europa League football.

Fair enough maybe Villa weren't contenders past February but Arsenal usually lasted past February

We don't spend our money because our board is far too obsessed with paying off debts etc and care little for what is going on the pitch. Even if they didn't we still wouldn't be paying what Chelsea/Man City are paying.

You clearly didn't see Arsenal's opening two games then. Arteta broke up plays immensely and filled Song's role on the pitch as it should be done. Obviously we'd rather see a more accomplished DM but if we had to sacrifice that for other positions we're in dire need of then I wouldn't mind much

 

[GodCubed]

No no I don't think we're going to compete for the league this year (even though I said so 2 weeks ago) and the reason Arsenal fans have settled for a CL place is because we're facing facts as you say and we're not deluding ourselves that we're going to compete with the Manchester clubs. In the past 12 years we've declined in terms of ambitions but in the past 7 we haven't really.

But why not? Why shouldn't Arsenal compete with the Manchester clubs? You've got a managerial great in charge, a good base of squad with a talented group of young players at its core, the best stadium in the country, top class facilities and a lot of cash to spend.

 

[Mike.]

No no I don't think we're going to compete for the league this year (even though I said so 2 weeks ago) and the reason Arsenal fans have settled for a CL place is because we're facing facts as you say and we're not deluding ourselves that we're going to compete with the Manchester clubs. In the past 12 years we've declined in terms of ambitions but in the past 7 we haven't really.

7-8 Years ago you won trophies and were Manchester United's arch title rivals. Now you are happy to finish 4th because you admit you cannot compete with the Manchester United clubs.

That is the very definition of decline.

 

[GodCubed]

He's also lazy and ill-disciplined, gives possession away far too much for a deep lying player and no I wouldn't say he's got a high work rate

Lol. Okay.

EDIT: **** it, unleashing the statshammer.

Lazy: Last year, Cheik Tiote put in the second most yards run per game than any other Newcastle player.

Ill-disciplined: Disregarding the fact that as a defensive midfielder he sometimes has to get booked just because he needs to take one for the team, last year Tiote received 11 yellow cards and no reds, a pretty decent record for such a combative midfielder.

Gives possession away: 83.2% pass success rating for last year, the fourth best in his team, would say otherwise.

High work rate: Quite apart from the distance run stats, he also put in the second most tackles, second most interceptions, and still found the time to make 18 successful dribbles, 13 key passes and take 29 shots.

 

[ajt09]

He's also lazy and ill-disciplined, gives possession away far too much for a deep lying player and no I wouldn't say he's got a high work rate

In this day and age though how many cards are warranted? and the rest of the comment I'm just going to.....pretend I didn't see.

 

[Quasit]

We are rolling in the cash. Overly so. If I remember right no other club has as big cash reserves as Arsenal do. United used to have similar or bigger before they spent big bucks on De Gea, Jones... Reason why that cash isn't spent on repaying the debts because we would incur penalties by settling the debt ahead of schedule. Part of cash reserves ( Don't know how much ) is reserved as collateral for our stadium loan.

Also Godcubed is right. We did well to finish 3rd, but that was as much due to other clubs ******* up big time and us doing the business in latter part of season. We still were too far behind United at 2nd and that point difference is what matters. Not the final position imo.

I've been long saying biggest problem with Arsenal is the board and especially Peter Hill-Wood. Kroenke doesn't care as he makes money just by staying silent. Since his takeover he has "made" ( unrealised profit on shares ) 400m or so as share prices have rised from 10k or so to 16k.

 

[fabregas2]

7-8 Years ago you won trophies and were Manchester United's arch title rivals. Now you are happy to finish 4th because you admit you cannot compete with the Manchester United clubs.

That is the very definition of decline.

Depends when you'r basing the start of the decline from. Between 2011 and 2012, Man United have declined.

But why not? Why shouldn't Arsenal compete with the Manchester clubs? You've got a managerial great in charge, a good base of squad with a talented group of young players at its core, the best stadium in the country, top class facilities and a lot of cash to spend.

Because other Chelsea and City got benefactors allowing them to rise past us whilst we didn't follow so the good players we have leave to further their ambition and we clearly don't have a lot of cash to spend. Where is this money you all speak of?

In terms of developing talent, you don't seem to be able to keep it, so you need to invest in bringing some in. In a circular way, that should actually help convince some of your homegrown talent to stay as well.

In terms of being better than Napoli, you're forgetting that Cavani is very hot property in Europe right now. If he chooses to move, he could attract offers from some of the best clubs on the continent.

I thought the argument was Napoli v Arsenal. Obviously if the likes of City, United, Chelsea etc came calling then we wouldn't really stand a chance

 

[ajt09]

Lol. Okay.

EDIT: **** it, unleashing the statshammer.

Lazy: Last year, Cheik Tiote put in the second most yards run per game than any other Newcastle player.

Ill-disciplined: Disregarding the fact that as a defensive midfielder he sometimes has to get booked just because he needs to take one for the team, last year Tiote received 11 yellow cards and no reds, a pretty decent record for such a combative midfielder.

Gives possession away: 83.2% pass success rating for last year, the fourth best in his team, would say otherwise.

High work rate: Quite apart from the distance run stats, he also put in the second most tackles, second most interceptions, and still found the time to make 18 successful dribbles, 13 key passes and take 29 shots.

And thus, the hammer shall strike a mortal blow

 

[Mike.]

We are rolling in the cash. Overly so. If I remember right no other club has as big cash reserves as Arsenal do. United used to have similar or bigger before they spent big bucks on De Gea, Jones... Reason why that cash isn't spent on repaying the debts because we would incur penalties by settling the debt ahead of schedule. Part of cash reserves ( Don't know how much ) is reserved as collateral for our stadium loan.

Also Godcubed is right. We did well to finish 3rd, but that was as much due to other clubs ******* up big time and us doing the business in latter part of season. We still were too far behind United at 2nd and that point difference is what matters. Not the final position imo.

I've been long saying biggest problem with Arsenal is the board and especially Peter Hill-Wood. Kroenke doesn't care as he makes money just by staying silent. Since his takeover he has "made" ( unrealised profit on shares ) 400m or so as share prices have rised from 10k or so to 16k.

Kroenke admires the Glazers' business model. You have been warned.