And Wenger has them. He has two more than Ancelotti; three less than Lippi; the same as Guardiola and five less than Mourinho (which were the other managers you named as 'world-class'). Not bad considering he also turns a profit every year too, no? And that's not even factoring the fact that some of the other managers managed in 'weaker' leagues.
The Arsenal Thread
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Only if you lack reading comprehension. I've never even said Guardiola is good or bad, I said he is not proven, which he is not. He literally took over two CL winning teams and he did well. That's nice, but its not nearly good enough to proclaiming him a god amongst managers.
In the meantime, Messi completely wrecked every important goalscoring record, his stats are head and shoulders above people like Van Basten, Fat Ronaldo or others who also played for top teams in the world. That's why no one can dispute how good he is - there's cold hard facts backing it up, not your 'Guardola is superior to Wenger because..er...well he is superior and also i'm attracted to bald men".
Well, for those who look back at the facts and say 'He was 30% better than Fat Ronaldo', then those cold hard facts will be correct, but you cannot judge a player in such a way. Messi is in a better team and thus looks "better" than some of the others, he is a focal point. You're better saying that they are world class players who are individually brilliant.
The same thing with a manager, he isn't on the field, you can only look at the W/D/L record through the prism of the players they have available. Wenger gets no trophy for his stadium, for his frugal achievement of top positions or the academies, but to the fans of the club they understands that he has helped built that and I doubt many managers could have stuck it out during the transition otherwise. Remember that the club financed the stadium itself, which is rare in the modern game, and thus it has a knock on effect on the pitch.
Wenger's record would have undoubtedly looked better were it not for City or Chelsea's billions coming into the picture, too.. but alas you can only deal with situations as they come up. To then say "Hey, he didn't win a trophy during this spell, must not be world class" rather fails to recognise the vast majority of managers who pull miracles keeping teams from falling down a division, get promotions to higher divisions and do day to day miracles with average or poor squads. Judging a manager by their trophies has a lot to do with the team and club behind them, and the situation allowing that push at the final table for honours.
The same thing with a manager, he isn't on the field, you can only look at the W/D/L record through the prism of the players they have available. Wenger gets no trophy for his stadium, for his frugal achievement of top positions or the academies, but to the fans of the club they understands that he has helped built that and I doubt many managers could have stuck it out during the transition otherwise. Remember that the club financed the stadium itself, which is rare in the modern game, and thus it has a knock on effect on the pitch.
Wenger's record would have undoubtedly looked better were it not for City or Chelsea's billions coming into the picture, too.. but alas you can only deal with situations as they come up. To then say "Hey, he didn't win a trophy during this spell, must not be world class" rather fails to recognise the vast majority of managers who pull miracles keeping teams from falling down a division, get promotions to higher divisions and do day to day miracles with average or poor squads. Judging a manager by their trophies has a lot to do with the team and club behind them, and the situation allowing that push at the final table for honours.
Ok, Guardiola is not proven. But Wenger is, by managing club in Japan. That aside, you are also saying Messi is unproven because he only played for Barcelona with probably the best team in football history. How can you argue how good Guardiola is when he won 6 trophies in one year? Six out of six. 100% success. Best managers are bound to coach best teams.
Double standards are *****, aren't they.
Great post. My understandment of wc manager is manager who wins trophies. I rate Wenger a lot, and he is second best manager in Premier league, but to be truly top top manager he needs to win trophies. There's no more excuses ( bad word, should say reasons) why he shouldn't win it. But until he does it, he won't be wc manager for me.
You lost 6-3 not 6-5. I'm just saying, you rarely see a match where a team concede six goals and think "wow, that was unfair". I think it's a fair point.
At least you did better than Spurs this weekend, though.
There's no reason why we shouldn't try to get through. I agree we are the underdogs, but it could benefit us as all pressure is on Bayern. Really tough fixture list in March.
No excuse for bad defending on quite many of the goals, but still things could have been much different if we were given the penalty or our goals had stood. We wouldn't had to chase the game as much as we did, which left us open.
Actually, Wenger has also managed Arsenal, who, believe it or not, didn't have one of the best teams in history when he joined. Yes, best managers are generally around to coach the best teams, but how do you justify Avram Grant at Chelsea then? Sometimes they get lucky, especially when they have no real prior achievements - the other achievements Guardiola had pre-Barcelona was managing their youth team.
Actually, if you read the post properly, he's arguing against a lot of your points. You emphasised that trophies are the way to judge managers, and also emphasised that Guardiola has won six out of six; whereas he's saying that trophies aren't the best way to judge managers, and that stats (like Guardiola's) aren't always an accurate representation of a manager's career. Oh, and, as I've said before, Wenger has won trophies, more than a dozen of them, so I don't see why you're stressing that he needs to win trophies again and again.
I see your point, but they're favourites for a reason. I can see it being a close game, but I think Bayern are just too good - not just for Arsenal, but for most of the teams in the Champions League!
No. I'm done here. We are done here. We somehow reached common conclusion and we were good with it, then you quote me, saying **** and starting this all over again. And you get angry when I say you're annoying and meddling human being. Thanks, but I don't have time, or nerves to talk about this again. I'm pretty sure you'll find somewhere else to quote me and try to get your revenge. Till then, bye.
Both Arsenal and City. Not to good for everybody else
Scotty98TR
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No. I'm done here. We are done here. We somehow reached common conclusion and we were good with it, then you quote me, saying **** and starting this all over again. And you get angry when I say you're annoying and meddling human being. Thanks, but I don't have time, or nerves to talk about this again. I'm pretty sure you'll find somewhere else to quote me and try to get your revenge. Till then, bye.
Both Arsenal and City. Not to good for everybody else
To be fair to TheFalse9, I find you p*ss annoying too.
Annoying? That's first. People usually call me *** or **** (sorry for language). And I can be one.
So many things to say in response to this...where to begin? Firstly, I'd like to point out my post was meant to be in no way personal, unlike your very rude post earlier. Yes, I'll admit, I dislike you, but I didn't want to make a scene (hence why I suggested carrying on the previous discussion via PM). And don't worry, I'm not annoyed - I find you hilarious to be honest! So let's get that straight - like I said, I don't like you, but that post had nothing to do with revenge. I quoted you merely because you were wrong - have you not seen how everyone else disagrees with you in the thread? Tyton said that Guardiola wasn't proven; rephlex said that trophies aren't a good measure for success; ajt09 said that Wenger was world-class, etc. So why aren't you saying they're disagreeing with you because of 'revenge'? The problem is, you're mindlessly spouting rubbish about how Wenger 'hasn't got trophies', yet you haven't responded to my counter-arguments regarding that, so no we didn't reach any 'common conclusion', it was just that you were ignoring the valid points I put across. You're blindly stubborn about your point of view, despite the fact that others, and facts for that matter (Wenger has 15 trophies, not 11 as you suggested, which is only a few less than the likes of Lippi, Mourinho, etc. - managers who you said were world-class) say otherwise, that's why I disagree with your point, not some stupid kiddy 'revenge'!No. I'm done here. We are done here. We somehow reached common conclusion and we were good with it, then you quote me, saying **** and starting this all over again. And you get angry when I say you're annoying and meddling human being. Thanks, but I don't have time, or nerves to talk about this again. I'm pretty sure you'll find somewhere else to quote me and try to get your revenge. Till then, bye.
Both Arsenal and City. Not to good for everybody else
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Scotty98TR
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Spot-on. Exactly why I find him so annoying.
Well, yea, I'm showman, Jamie Redknap wannabe.
Because I'm pretty much ignoring you. I've responded to everybody else. Sum 2 and 2 bud.
There! He made me say that. Vanjagl, you ****!
Im sorry but if you are just ignoring people,why are you here? This is a thread for arsenal supporters on other people who have constructive opinions, all you are doing is flaming