The Liverpool Thread

[Scouseinthehouse]

That was a very big win, well done, and a good post Scouse - I like hearing fans so positive and supportive of their side, as much as it kills me when it comes from a Liverpool fan... But the "best players" statement is a bit steep... Firmino & Coutinho, as much as they're up there, aren't the undisputed best players in the league by a long shot, not even if we're talking about form this season; Costa, Hazard, De Bruyne, Sanchez, Mane, Son & co aren't too far behind in that aspect, if not a couple of them on par or ahead. I don't question your points too often, as you're a decent judge, but I'll put that one down as a view through red tinted goggles

Thought of you just now reading this Mel Reddy piece on Coutinho: Outshining Hazard and out-assisting Ozil - is Coutinho the Premier League's best player? - Goal.com

I guess you could be subjective to whomever ultimately but this is a good read.

 

[damola3]

Thought of you just now reading this Mel Reddy piece on Coutinho: Outshining Hazard and out-assisting Ozil - is Coutinho the Premier League's best player? - Goal.com

I guess you could be subjective to whomever ultimately but this is a good read.

Did say last week Coutinho has probably been the best no 10 so far.

 

[zzeezzy]

In general in football I think it's the next era of the way the games going more than anything. Teams at the very top are taking more risks to score more goals to keep up with each other. The more risks they take, the more they'll naturally concede.

Defence first teams, with defensive minded managers, are in the main being passed by as the game evolves again into an exciting, attacking era.
#30036

Very debatable topic, I don't think so personally, unless you're Barcelona, Bayern or Real Madrid where you literally have the star quality to blow everyone away anyway. The great teams I think of who have done very well in modern era in PL are all built upon great defences for the most part. But then even if you go to Europe looking at a team (not in the 5 star bracket) that has performed beyond all expectation domestically/in Europe and look at someone like Atletico Madrid under Simeone.

At the end of the day, this style Klopp delivers is excellent football to watch and he has done great with it. But to claim this is the 'winning' formula with this brand of football or the way football is going I think isn't necessarily right. I mean yes he has won things with it in Bundesliga against all odds. But he has also lost a lot with it as well, for example his last 5 cup finals.

A team like Leicester in the Premier League won through an unbelievably cohesive, hard-working 4-4-2 that was great at defending back to front. But they were also exceptional on the counter which is how they won.

So all in all, I'd say your point about attacking football being the way football is going and how teams now 'win' (in terms of titles/silverware) pretty unfounded. You can make the claim with evidence of how some teams play and have had success with it in the modern era don't get me wrong.

 

[Scouseinthehouse]

Not just Klopp zz. Pep, Pochetino, Koeman et all.

I'm not singling him out as he's Utd manager, just that he's the biggest name struggling the last few years, but José's general MO is becoming outdated and the game is passing that brand of football by now as these newer, younger coaches evolve at big clubs. Which is to his detriment as he's only 53, a mere 4 yrs older than Klopp. But he looks and his football feels like he's a granddad from a bygone age that just isn't ready to fully let go and move with the times. I hope for your sake the sheer weight of what Utd fans expect forces him to change on a consistent basis or you'll just get left behind. Someone is the exception to the rule right now and how long that's sustainable is open to debate.

Oh, and that's completely aside from you missing the point by a Country mile that these managers have a team structure to defending on the front foot that is every bit as effective as sitting back.

 

[Scouseinthehouse]

Did say last week Coutinho has probably been the best no 10 so far.

Along with Henderson, he's been the most improved L'pool player this year by far now he's added the one thing he was lacking. Consistency. (Although he's not a number 10. At least not in the traditional sense. We don't play with one. We just have a bunch of number 10 quality players all over the attacking 5/6 interchanging at will.).

We've always known he has World Class talent. He's flashed that through his first three years with some jaw dropping moments of absolute genius. The amount of Worldie goals he's scored have become his trademark and have opposition fans drooling and talking like he's the only talent we have because they remember those highlights. But for every Worldie he's webbed in, there was another 19 he blammed aimlessly high and wide from 20 odd yards when a simple ball was on. He struggled when all the onus was on him as the star man after Gerrard left and the quality wasn't there around him. He'd disappear not only during games for large chunks, but whole games at a time. It's been a joke that's he's been our player of the year the last two years running. Nothing like people voting for the star name just because he's scored a handful of unstoppable goals whilst neglecting everything else.

But this year, sans Burnley which is the last game he and the team have fallen back into that (have I mentioned just how much they've learned from that loss? It's turning out to be a pivotal moment in L'pool's season); he's started believing in the better quality around him and just having fun out there again. Which has lead to ridiculous consistency. Particularly the past month when he's been nothing shy of phenomenal. Adding the pace of Mane and Wijnaldum has been a big factor in allowing him more freedom to work his magic. And with that we're starting to see a new level of maturity and intelligence from the Brazilian. He's no longer just aimlessly blamming potshots. Now he's looking to create and get it back and is no longer afraid to play inside the area. His confidence in himself and his teammates that he no longer has to be 'THE MAN' and that theres match winners all over the pitch has lead to a major upturn in that consistency. Along with the continued faith the manager has shown in him. But it's right across the front 5/6 in all honesty. The interchanging and form of them all has been superb and they're all working that hard and covering for their mates that it's allowing the lot of them the freedom to really express themselves without fear within the intricate team structure this system demands of you. Opposition defenders are SO bamboozled by the movement and amount of bodies coming at them at such pace it's a dream scenario for someone as technically gifted as Phil to pick it up in the spaces and create something special.

If Coutinho continues like he is, and the team continues to be as free flowing affording him the space to pick it up and play the killer pass, or make room for one of his Worldies, he'll be a shoo-in for player of the year.

 

[zzeezzy]

Not just Klopp zz. Pep, Pochetino, Koeman et all.

I'm not singling him out as he's Utd manager, just that he's the biggest name struggling the last few years, but José's general MO is becoming outdated and the game is passing that brand of football by now as these newer, younger coaches evolve at big clubs. Which is to his detriment as he's only 53, a mere 4 yrs older than Klopp. But he looks and his football feels like he's a granddad from a bygone age that just isn't ready to fully let go and move with the times. I hope for your sake the sheer weight of what Utd fans expect forces him to change on a consistent basis or you'll just get left behind. Someone is the exception to the rule right now and how long that's sustainable is open to debate.

Oh, and that's completely aside from you missing the point by a Country mile that these managers have a team structure to defending on the front foot that is every bit as effective as sitting back.

Mourinho isn't being left behind though, it is far too early to come to that prediction based on him having one bad season at Chelsea. Reality is he won PL title the season before that people so easily forget. 'His football feels like he's a grandad from a bygone age', a lot of people criticise Mourinho for his style of play, sometimes it is justified. But Mourinho is a manager who sets up his team to the opponent and sets out a gameplan. To say his style is outdated, bygone and whatever else is absurd when he has still achieved more recently than any manager you have mentioned.

Plus just look to the Burnley game, 37 shots most ever recorded in a match since Optastats introduced I believe. His style isn't outdated, it's just built for the opponent and who are we to argue?

Pocchetinno, Klopp, Koeman all good managers with different footballing perspectives, but to say they are outdating Mourinho is just not correct. When they have some profound success with it then sure but until then, it's just media bs if you ask me.

 

[PatrickLFC]

Along with Henderson, he's been the most improved L'pool player this year by far now he's added the one thing he was lacking. Consistency. (Although he's not a number 10. At least not in the traditional sense. We don't play with one. We just have a bunch of number 10 quality players all over the attacking 5/6 interchanging at will.).

We've always known he has World Class talent. He's flashed that through his first three years with some jaw dropping moments of absolute genius. The amount of Worldie goals he's scored have become his trademark and have opposition fans drooling and talking like he's the only talent we have because they remember those highlights. But for every Worldie he's webbed in, there was another 19 he blammed aimlessly high and wide from 20 odd yards when a simple ball was on. He struggled when all the onus was on him as the star man after Gerrard left and the quality wasn't there around him. He'd disappear not only during games for large chunks, but whole games at a time. It's been a joke that's he's been our player of the year the last two years running. Nothing like people voting for the star name just because he's scored a handful of unstoppable goals whilst neglecting everything else.

But this year, sans Burnley which is the last game he and the team have fallen back into that (have I mentioned just how much they've learned from that loss? It's turning out to be a pivotal moment in L'pool's season); he's started believing in the better quality around him and just having fun out there again. Which has lead to ridiculous consistency. Particularly the past month when he's been nothing shy of phenomenal. Adding the pace of Mane and Wijnaldum has been a big factor in allowing him more freedom to work his magic. And with that we're starting to see a new level of maturity and intelligence from the Brazilian. He's no longer just aimlessly blamming potshots. Now he's looking to create and get it back and is no longer afraid to play inside the area. His confidence in himself and his teammates that he no longer has to be 'THE MAN' and that theres match winners all over the pitch has lead to a major upturn in that consistency. Along with the continued faith the manager has shown in him. But it's right across the front 5/6 in all honesty. The interchanging and form of them all has been superb and they're all working that hard and covering for their mates that it's allowing the lot of them the freedom to really express themselves without fear within the intricate team structure this system demands of you. Opposition defenders are SO bamboozled by the movement and amount of bodies coming at them at such pace it's a dream scenario for someone as technically gifted as Phil to pick it up in the spaces and create something special.

If Coutinho continues like he is, and the team continues to be as free flowing affording him the space to pick it up and play the killer pass, or make room for one of his Worldies, he'll be a shoo-in for player of the year.

Agree with most of this except that I think Coutinho probably was deserving of the POTY awards. Not denying he was frustratingly inconsistent, but no one else produced as many game-winning moments as he did, not even close. Firmino or Clyne probably had a decent claim to it last year as well but Phil had at least as good a case as anyone in the last two seasons imo

 

[Scouseinthehouse]

Agree with most of this except that I think Coutinho probably was deserving of the POTY awards. Not denying he was frustratingly inconsistent, but no one else produced as many game-winning moments as he did, not even close. Firmino or Clyne probably had a decent claim to it last year as well but Phil had at least as good a case as anyone in the last two seasons imo

For consistent 7 out of 10 or better performances right over last season, I'd personally of only considered Clyne or Milner. Ad given Milner contributed more combined goals and assists, whilst filling in anywhere from either wing to left back and most points in between, I don't think you would of gone far wrong picking him.

 

[Scouseinthehouse]

..... Pocchetinno, Klopp, Koeman all good managers with different footballing perspectives, but to say they are outdating Mourinho is just not correct. When they have some profound success with it then sure but until then, it's just media bs if you ask me.

You conveniently neglected the best example, Guardiola, who has blown everyone out of the water.

There was a brilliant presser from Pep the other day where the clueless journalist asked him 'what happens when his plan A fails and why he has no plan B?' Too which Pep replied along the lines of 'my plan A is so successful 9 times out 10, why would I need to change?' And reeled off all his 27 trophy's or whatever it is as a coach. You'd of hated it but attacking football is the age we're now in my friend.

You aren't going to agree. In the same way you dogmatically see football in black and white and just look at 'goals conceded' instead of seeing just how good this defence, which isn't the 'defence' per se but the whole eleven as we defend and attack as a team and if Firmino isn't doing his job up top, then he takes as much of the blame as anyone at the back when it falls down and the opposition break and score, has been playing and limiting opponents to virtually nothing all year. If we'd of been defending half as good in '13/'14, we'd of wrapped the league up long before the 'Gerrard slip' nonsense that wasn't what cost L'pool the title and Rodgers would quite probably still be in the job.

So to save going around in circles it's best left. Just bare this in mind at the end of this year, or next if Mourinho is still at Utd in comparison to Klopp and Guardiola and Conte and the like, the new bread of manager evolving the game in this era.

 

[damola3]

One thing that's for sure is that Mourinho doesn't have the same magic he initially did in 2007.

 

[Scouseinthehouse]

XD @ Flanno’s comment. Such a Scouser:

 

[spook]

 

[iamauser]

Danny Ings: Liverpool striker to miss rest of the season because of injury - BBC Sport

Gutted for Ings :|

 

[Scouseinthehouse]

Danny Ings: Liverpool striker to miss rest of the season because of injury - BBC Sport

Gutted for Ings :|

Well that really sucks for him. He's worked so hard to get back playing ahead of schedule too and had an exemplary attitude playing for the U-23's.

Gutted for him. At least it's not the same knee.

 

[Scouseinthehouse]

Could now well see a scenario where Ings is ultimately sold. By the time he's (hopefully) back to full fitness, Klopp will of been here two years and the team will have evolved even more. Without him having any real opportunity to look at Danny.

Seriously devoed for him.

 

[xJamieWilliams]

Could now well see a scenario where Ings is ultimately sold. By the time he's (hopefully) back to full fitness, Klopp will of been here two years and the team will have evolved even more. Without him having any real opportunity to look at Danny.

Seriously devoed for him.

So gutted for him. His attitude has been spot on since he's joined the club. Seems like a really nice guy and I really rate him as a player too.

Hopefully its not the end for him at Liverpool but it does seem like a long way back for him. 2 years without playing at a top level could really harm his ability.

 

[Tezzz]

Well that really sucks for him. He's worked so hard to get back playing ahead of schedule too and had an exemplary attitude playing for the U-23's.

Gutted for him. At least it's not the same knee.

Absolutely devo'd for him. You couldn't make it up could you?

 

[Scouseinthehouse]

Absolutely devo'd for him. You couldn't make it up could you?

Devo'd too lid. Just as he was pushing to be back the the first team squad. I like how you spelt that over how I did BTW. Not easy writing like we talk haha.

Leeds pricings out mate. Same as 'Spurs. Leeds have the whole Anny. Would expect the selling details the next day or so.

 

[dilakh2]

So gutted for him. His attitude has been spot on since he's joined the club. Seems like a really nice guy and I really rate him as a player too.

Hopefully its not the end for him at Liverpool but it does seem like a long way back for him. 2 years without playing at a top level could really harm his ability.

I think it probably is the end of his LFC career. He was already 4th choice striker to begin with, being out for 2 years won't help his case. Really devastating not just for Ings but for Klopp aswell as Ings would have been perfect for the system we play.

 

[Scouseinthehouse]

I think it probably is the end of his LFC career. He was already 4th choice striker to begin with, being out for 2 years won't help his case. Really devastating not just for Ings but for Klopp aswell as Ings would have been perfect for the system we play.

Yeah. We apparently turned down £20 million for him before the window closed as per TB, Joyce and co. So Klopp obviously really fancied him. I think the idea was to bring him on slowly this year and have him raring to go next pre-season and play a major part with all the extra games next year.

Have to feel it's a long way back for him again now.