PatrickLFC
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He said "in the games they didn't play us", not "in the games before they played us", think you misread that
The Liverpool Thread
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He said "in the games they didn't play us", not "in the games before they played us", think you misread that
Fergie always said you don't win anything without a good defence, I still stick to that sentiment and believe it to be true. If you are going to win Premier League your going to have to tighten up and stop conceding as many as you are currently. You can't rely on always scoring more if your conceding every game., it's just not something that wins titles ultimately.
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I don't think Liverpool's defence is as bad as made out. Karius has looked a bit suspect but will come good. At least statistically, Liverpool have been quite unlucky with the number conceded. They are statistically the hardest team to play through. Mustering a decent pass completion ratio to get in the final third is difficult. It's really about concentration in vital moments.
I'm not really sure about any definite title contenders until Christmas. Anything can happen and it would be unwise to rule Liverpool out. Remember that no team is and will run away with the league. It's the best title race for years. Thus far, the managerial super league hasn't disappointed as all of the big shots and big possession teams have blown the rest of the league away. 2-3 bad results can see you far off the top.
I'll be the first to admit I didn't even fancy Liverpool for top 4 this year, so far I am being proven wrong. Like you say though still 28 games to go or something like that. Got to admit I didn't even factor in that they weren't in Europe which is huge advantage when making that prediction at start of season. For some reason thought they were in Europa League this year.
Wouldnt necessarily say their defence is terrible, just too leaky and not of the strength title winning teams usually are in that department, at the moment anyway.
lxl Ra lxl
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The defences of the top 5 have been pretty poor overall anyways imo if you don't rate Liverpools as one of the stronger ones.
I also wanted to comment on the bottom end of the table. By old standards, Middlesbrough are relegation fodder, however Hull, Sunderland and Burnley exist. Their shots on target ratio are some of the poorest ever seen in the premier league. To stay up, you need an attack. Remember that 1 win is worth 3 draws. Defense isn't neccesarily the biggest factor, however Hull and Sunderland have been shocking. Sunderland's strategy has been 'let Pickford save everything' and Hull were conceding historical highs of 23 shots a game 7 matches in! Burnley have had incredible luck at the back and are overdue a few hidings which will come soon. Middlesbrough can defend, however if their attack is as persistently weak, they will finish close to the other 3 near the bottom.
Not sure about that, Spurs have been solid this year so far and Arsenal to a lesser extent. They conceded 4 against you but apart from that I think their defence has been good this year. Then factor in Chelsea last 4 games 0 goals conceded under Contes preferred formation.
The top 5 have been relatively similar defensively apart from Conte's which have arguably been the best so far. Lloris has a 90%+ save percentage which artificially supresses their figures. It's really about the ability to concentrate in vital moments, the ability to see out games and resilience.
Just to give a heads up to you all, Sunderland is the easiest 3 points you'll get this season.
Even if it's the goalkeeper contributing to that record still very much counts... Doesn't matter how goals are not conceded at the end of the day.
I just looked at it.. Liverpool have conceded 8 more than Spurs, 4 more than Chelsea and 3 more than Arsenal. If Arsenal hadn't conceded so many at start of season with that makeshift defence when Koscielny was out and they used Rob Holding it would of been better defensive record.
Scouseinthehouse
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In general in football I think it's the next era of the way the games going more than anything. Teams at the very top are taking more risks to score more goals to keep up with each other. The more risks they take, the more they'll naturally concede.
Defence first teams, with defensive minded managers, are in the main being passed by as the game evolves again into an exciting, attacking era.
As for L'pool's defence, I wrote on the myth still circulating that they are poor compared to everyone else before Saturday contained in here: #30036
Scouseinthehouse
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They're a great bet to topple Derby's lowest ever points total. 2 points from 10 games is mad. I'm actually real sorry about this as Sunderland is always a great place to go. Real good people. They deserve FAR better.
And the absolute clueless clown managing them not only incredibly managed Utd, he was even more astoundingly handpicked by Ferguson! That still blows me away how that ever happened.
Mores the petty that he only lasted the one season.
. Great fun whilst it lasted. 
.My point being that Liverpool already have the points on the board and are already higher than Spurs. Lloris's unsustainable save percentage counts for nothing. We look at these stats for an accurate reflection of the future. What they show is that Liverpool won't be that unlucky in terms of goals conceded although their backing isn't the best in the league. They also show that Tottenham's luck will soon run out. Goals conceded in the past doesn't matter as long as you know that the defence will perform capably in the future.
It's like me saying that United won't score enough this season due to the draw with Burnley. This wouldn't be a fair analysis. If you could simulate that match multiple times, United are blowing Burnley away in the majority of scenarios. United are very unlikely to be goalless after 37 shots in the same way that Liverpool probably won't be as unlucky in terms of goals conceded. What matters is the resilience of the Liverpool players and the ability to concentrate at the back in order to minimise mistakes. I'm talking about general mental strength.
This lot of top teams is one of the best defensively in the league we'll every see. Don't be fooled by the Cliché. Liverpool's defensive setup is among the best in the league along with Arsenal, Tottenham, City (excluding individual errors) and Chelsea.
Scouseinthehouse
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Is that the German guy Elmar Nevelings book mate?
Heard that referenced a lot on various things with glowing reviews.
Klopp’s Liverpool: Poised to Make the Leap | StatsBomb
This article is a bit more informative. Last season, it was more defensive errors that tactical setup.
This article is a bit more informative. Last season, it was more defensive errors that tactical setup.
Scouseinthehouse
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That was a very big win, well done, and a good post Scouse - I like hearing fans so positive and supportive of their side, as much as it kills me when it comes from a Liverpool fan... But the "best players" statement is a bit steep... Firmino & Coutinho, as much as they're up there, aren't the undisputed best players in the league by a long shot, not even if we're talking about form this season; Costa, Hazard, De Bruyne, Sanchez, Mane, Son & co aren't too far behind in that aspect, if not a couple of them on par or ahead. I don't question your points too often, as you're a decent judge, but I'll put that one down as a view through red tinted goggles
Thought of you just now reading this Mel Reddy piece on Coutinho: Outshining Hazard and out-assisting Ozil - is Coutinho the Premier League's best player? - Goal.com
I guess you could be subjective to whomever ultimately but this is a good read.
Did say last week Coutinho has probably been the best no 10 so far.
Very debatable topic, I don't think so personally, unless you're Barcelona, Bayern or Real Madrid where you literally have the star quality to blow everyone away anyway. The great teams I think of who have done very well in modern era in PL are all built upon great defences for the most part. But then even if you go to Europe looking at a team (not in the 5 star bracket) that has performed beyond all expectation domestically/in Europe and look at someone like Atletico Madrid under Simeone.
At the end of the day, this style Klopp delivers is excellent football to watch and he has done great with it. But to claim this is the 'winning' formula with this brand of football or the way football is going I think isn't necessarily right. I mean yes he has won things with it in Bundesliga against all odds. But he has also lost a lot with it as well, for example his last 5 cup finals.
A team like Leicester in the Premier League won through an unbelievably cohesive, hard-working 4-4-2 that was great at defending back to front. But they were also exceptional on the counter which is how they won.
So all in all, I'd say your point about attacking football being the way football is going and how teams now 'win' (in terms of titles/silverware) pretty unfounded. You can make the claim with evidence of how some teams play and have had success with it in the modern era don't get me wrong.
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Scouseinthehouse
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Not just Klopp zz. Pep, Pochetino, Koeman et all.
I'm not singling him out as he's Utd manager, just that he's the biggest name struggling the last few years, but José's general MO is becoming outdated and the game is passing that brand of football by now as these newer, younger coaches evolve at big clubs. Which is to his detriment as he's only 53, a mere 4 yrs older than Klopp. But he looks and his football feels like he's a granddad from a bygone age that just isn't ready to fully let go and move with the times. I hope for your sake the sheer weight of what Utd fans expect forces him to change on a consistent basis or you'll just get left behind. Someone is the exception to the rule right now and how long that's sustainable is open to debate.
Oh, and that's completely aside from you missing the point by a Country mile that these managers have a team structure to defending on the front foot that is every bit as effective as sitting back.
I'm not singling him out as he's Utd manager, just that he's the biggest name struggling the last few years, but José's general MO is becoming outdated and the game is passing that brand of football by now as these newer, younger coaches evolve at big clubs. Which is to his detriment as he's only 53, a mere 4 yrs older than Klopp. But he looks and his football feels like he's a granddad from a bygone age that just isn't ready to fully let go and move with the times. I hope for your sake the sheer weight of what Utd fans expect forces him to change on a consistent basis or you'll just get left behind. Someone is the exception to the rule right now and how long that's sustainable is open to debate.
Oh, and that's completely aside from you missing the point by a Country mile that these managers have a team structure to defending on the front foot that is every bit as effective as sitting back.
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Scouseinthehouse
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Along with Henderson, he's been the most improved L'pool player this year by far now he's added the one thing he was lacking. Consistency. (Although he's not a number 10. At least not in the traditional sense. We don't play with one. We just have a bunch of number 10 quality players all over the attacking 5/6 interchanging at will.).
We've always known he has World Class talent. He's flashed that through his first three years with some jaw dropping moments of absolute genius. The amount of Worldie goals he's scored have become his trademark and have opposition fans drooling and talking like he's the only talent we have because they remember those highlights. But for every Worldie he's webbed in, there was another 19 he blammed aimlessly high and wide from 20 odd yards when a simple ball was on. He struggled when all the onus was on him as the star man after Gerrard left and the quality wasn't there around him. He'd disappear not only during games for large chunks, but whole games at a time. It's been a joke that's he's been our player of the year the last two years running. Nothing like people voting for the star name just because he's scored a handful of unstoppable goals whilst neglecting everything else.
But this year, sans Burnley which is the last game he and the team have fallen back into that (have I mentioned just how much they've learned from that loss? It's turning out to be a pivotal moment in L'pool's season); he's started believing in the better quality around him and just having fun out there again. Which has lead to ridiculous consistency. Particularly the past month when he's been nothing shy of phenomenal. Adding the pace of Mane and Wijnaldum has been a big factor in allowing him more freedom to work his magic. And with that we're starting to see a new level of maturity and intelligence from the Brazilian. He's no longer just aimlessly blamming potshots. Now he's looking to create and get it back and is no longer afraid to play inside the area. His confidence in himself and his teammates that he no longer has to be 'THE MAN' and that theres match winners all over the pitch has lead to a major upturn in that consistency. Along with the continued faith the manager has shown in him. But it's right across the front 5/6 in all honesty. The interchanging and form of them all has been superb and they're all working that hard and covering for their mates that it's allowing the lot of them the freedom to really express themselves without fear within the intricate team structure this system demands of you. Opposition defenders are SO bamboozled by the movement and amount of bodies coming at them at such pace it's a dream scenario for someone as technically gifted as Phil to pick it up in the spaces and create something special.
If Coutinho continues like he is, and the team continues to be as free flowing affording him the space to pick it up and play the killer pass, or make room for one of his Worldies, he'll be a shoo-in for player of the year.
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