Them being completely different types of player?
David Silva can't get into the Spain team either. Offer him out for 7.5 mil and I think there'd be quite a few takers.
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Them being completely different types of player?
David Silva can't get into the Spain team either. Offer him out for 7.5 mil and I think there'd be quite a few takers.
LFCMarshall
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So with Toure and Aspas complete... Sky and other outlets are now reporting a fair few deals also close
Mkhitaryan, Alberto, Ilori and Mignolet all expected to sign in the coming weeks
That could be our summer spending almost finished unless Suarez does leave! Nice to see things getting done quite early
Mkhitaryan, Alberto, Ilori and Mignolet all expected to sign in the coming weeks
That could be our summer spending almost finished unless Suarez does leave! Nice to see things getting done quite early
You want top 4, you need Spaniard in the squad. Its the law.
This post was riddled with sarcasm in case some hadn't picked up on that
LFCMarshall
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This post was riddled with sarcasm in case some hadn't picked up on that
I did think the responses to it hadn't quite understood this haha!
Ilori’s arrival is a sad sign of the times for English football
Rory SmithJune 17 2013 11:06AM
His name is not especially relevant. Nor is his position, or his cost, or his nationality, or the colour of his skin or who he plays for now or where he will be transferred in the future. It is not about him, or them. But it is useful, when discussing an abstract, to focus on something specific, and specifically real. The best way of understanding the forest is to look at a single, individual tree.
With that in mind, let us consider Tiago Ilori.
Tiago Ilori is a 20-year-old central defender currently employed by Sporting Clube do Portugal, the team generally, mistakenly known as Sporting Lisbon. He has made just a couple of dozen appearances for their first team, played a few times for their second team, and has won a handful of caps for some of Portugal’s age-group teams, too. Despite that comparative inexperience, at some point in the coming days and weeks – as long as Sporting prove amenable – Liverpool intend to pay somewhere between £3 million (the buyer’s estimate) and £8 million (the vendor’s) for his services.
There are a number of possible reactions to that sentence.
The first, for Liverpool fans, is excitement. Any new signing at any club engenders a feeling of tingling anticipation, a hope that, at last, that glaring weakness has been rectified or that underpowered front-line strengthened. That sentiment is heightened when the new arrival comes from foreign shores, and is extended yet further when he is shrouded in mystery.
There is a limit to how much you can expect from a player you have seen toiling in midfield for Sunderland or as West Brom’s second-choice left-back. Familiarity, in a sense, breeds contempt. You know, more or less, what they are capable of, what they will bring to your team. It is hard to get too excited.
The exotic import, one with an unfamiliar face and an unpronounceable name, though, is different. They bring with them untold promise, the sense of almost limitless possibility. Even if you have seen them play in Spain or Italy or Russia or whatever, you do not know quite how good they might turn out to be here. They cast a spell on our imaginations.
Look at Georgi Kinkladze, or Michu, or Hotshot Hamish: they were obscure when they first arrived on these shores, too. Maybe Ilori can be like that. Maybe he will be the rock on which a title-winning side is built. Maybe he is the new Beckenbauer. Maybe. Maybe.
From the outside, though, such heady optimism is likely to be altogether more baffling. Why are Liverpool spending all of this money on a player who, simply put, cannot possibly be ready for the first team? If Ilori was good enough to play in the Barclays Premier League, he would have managed more than 20 games in Portugal by the age of 20. Liverpool need to attend to their present before they start thinking about the future, surely?
This segues seamlessly into a third response: disappointment at the arrival of yet another foreigner in the Premier League, one more import whose presence will stymie the development and stifle the opportunities of a young English player. In a summer when England’s Under-21s have been so roundly humiliated in the European Championships, such a point of view feels in tune with the zeitgeist. English football is rotting at its core. Something must be done! Ban the foreigners! Revoke all passports! Close Dover! Leave the EU!
This call to arms, though, misses the point. England’s failure at international level does not coincide with the mass influx of foreign players into this country. Look at the 1970s, when two World Cups went by without the national side present at a time when English club football was at the strongest point in its history.
The presence of imports is not the cause of England’s lack of quality; it is a symptom of it. Liverpool want to pay somewhere in the region of £3 million to £8 million for an untested Portuguese centre back because they have adjudged him better than any English central defender in that price bracket.
That is not to say that there are no English defenders better than Ilori, but that those of similar ability would cost far more. Premier League sides look abroad for players because of gross inflation in the domestic market.
It is this which stops the best teams in the country stocking their squads with Englishmen: the greed of club owners right down the leagues in charging absurd premiums for home-grown talent. Why give a rival £15 million for a player when, for half that amount, you can get the same quality and not fill an opponent’s coffers? Until that pattern stops, until there is an element of self-policing, clubs will look abroad, where there is value to be had.
That is not the only structural problem in English football that must be addressed if the likes of Ilori – and all of the players he stands for, of whatever nationality – are to thrive.
The Premier League’s big beasts stockpile bright young players, whole squadrons of them, bought early and in bulk in the hope that one of them might prove a bargain. Some, the ones whose talent burns brightest, fulfil their potential. The vast majority, though, fall by the wayside. Partly, that is unavoidable: not everyone can make it, even when they have reached the rarefied heights of Chelsea’s or Tottenham’s reserve team. But the drop-off rate could be improved, vastly, by a change in the way we approach youth development.
Two years ago, Liverpool last signed another hugely promising central defender. Sebastian Coates arrived from Nacional in Uruguay for £7 million in August 2011, just weeks after being voted the best young player at the Copa America. He prompted all of the excitement and hope and expectation that Ilori has trailed in his wake, too.
Coates will leave Anfield this summer. Liverpool will not recoup £7 million on him, much less make the profit they would require to cover the costs of his wages for two years. Was he a bad signing? Was that young promise all an illusion? Did he just get lucky in the Copa America? Was he a myth?
No, of course not. Coates has talent, but like all talent, it needs to be nurtured. The best way to do that is to play. Coates did not. He sat on the bench for much of his first year, and often did not manage that in his second. Without action, without oxygen, he stagnated, and withered.
In Spain, he would certainly have played, even if it was just for the B side of Barcelona, Real Madrid, Sevilla or Valencia. In Germany, too, where Bayern Munich and Borussia Dortmund have B teams playing competitive football. In Italy, he might have been half-owned by Genoa – say – and half-owned by AC Milan. He would have played at Genoa while Milan waited to see if he grew into a player of sufficient quality to grace the San Siro. The shared ownership system means big clubs do not always have to pay a premium for talent, but ensures that young players can still play.
England has no such provision. Roberto Martínez, now the Everton manager, has long identified the hiatus in a player’s development between the ages of 18 and 22 as the point where English football struggles; teams can get prospects through their academies, but have no way of finessing them into the first team. They sit, and they wait. Some get a chance, but most disappear. Liverpool will have to hope Tiago Ilori does not just become another name, another lost hope.
This blog is exclusive for digital subscribers to The Times and The
Rory SmithJune 17 2013 11:06AM
His name is not especially relevant. Nor is his position, or his cost, or his nationality, or the colour of his skin or who he plays for now or where he will be transferred in the future. It is not about him, or them. But it is useful, when discussing an abstract, to focus on something specific, and specifically real. The best way of understanding the forest is to look at a single, individual tree.
With that in mind, let us consider Tiago Ilori.
Tiago Ilori is a 20-year-old central defender currently employed by Sporting Clube do Portugal, the team generally, mistakenly known as Sporting Lisbon. He has made just a couple of dozen appearances for their first team, played a few times for their second team, and has won a handful of caps for some of Portugal’s age-group teams, too. Despite that comparative inexperience, at some point in the coming days and weeks – as long as Sporting prove amenable – Liverpool intend to pay somewhere between £3 million (the buyer’s estimate) and £8 million (the vendor’s) for his services.
There are a number of possible reactions to that sentence.
The first, for Liverpool fans, is excitement. Any new signing at any club engenders a feeling of tingling anticipation, a hope that, at last, that glaring weakness has been rectified or that underpowered front-line strengthened. That sentiment is heightened when the new arrival comes from foreign shores, and is extended yet further when he is shrouded in mystery.
There is a limit to how much you can expect from a player you have seen toiling in midfield for Sunderland or as West Brom’s second-choice left-back. Familiarity, in a sense, breeds contempt. You know, more or less, what they are capable of, what they will bring to your team. It is hard to get too excited.
The exotic import, one with an unfamiliar face and an unpronounceable name, though, is different. They bring with them untold promise, the sense of almost limitless possibility. Even if you have seen them play in Spain or Italy or Russia or whatever, you do not know quite how good they might turn out to be here. They cast a spell on our imaginations.
Look at Georgi Kinkladze, or Michu, or Hotshot Hamish: they were obscure when they first arrived on these shores, too. Maybe Ilori can be like that. Maybe he will be the rock on which a title-winning side is built. Maybe he is the new Beckenbauer. Maybe. Maybe.
From the outside, though, such heady optimism is likely to be altogether more baffling. Why are Liverpool spending all of this money on a player who, simply put, cannot possibly be ready for the first team? If Ilori was good enough to play in the Barclays Premier League, he would have managed more than 20 games in Portugal by the age of 20. Liverpool need to attend to their present before they start thinking about the future, surely?
This segues seamlessly into a third response: disappointment at the arrival of yet another foreigner in the Premier League, one more import whose presence will stymie the development and stifle the opportunities of a young English player. In a summer when England’s Under-21s have been so roundly humiliated in the European Championships, such a point of view feels in tune with the zeitgeist. English football is rotting at its core. Something must be done! Ban the foreigners! Revoke all passports! Close Dover! Leave the EU!
This call to arms, though, misses the point. England’s failure at international level does not coincide with the mass influx of foreign players into this country. Look at the 1970s, when two World Cups went by without the national side present at a time when English club football was at the strongest point in its history.
The presence of imports is not the cause of England’s lack of quality; it is a symptom of it. Liverpool want to pay somewhere in the region of £3 million to £8 million for an untested Portuguese centre back because they have adjudged him better than any English central defender in that price bracket.
That is not to say that there are no English defenders better than Ilori, but that those of similar ability would cost far more. Premier League sides look abroad for players because of gross inflation in the domestic market.
It is this which stops the best teams in the country stocking their squads with Englishmen: the greed of club owners right down the leagues in charging absurd premiums for home-grown talent. Why give a rival £15 million for a player when, for half that amount, you can get the same quality and not fill an opponent’s coffers? Until that pattern stops, until there is an element of self-policing, clubs will look abroad, where there is value to be had.
That is not the only structural problem in English football that must be addressed if the likes of Ilori – and all of the players he stands for, of whatever nationality – are to thrive.
The Premier League’s big beasts stockpile bright young players, whole squadrons of them, bought early and in bulk in the hope that one of them might prove a bargain. Some, the ones whose talent burns brightest, fulfil their potential. The vast majority, though, fall by the wayside. Partly, that is unavoidable: not everyone can make it, even when they have reached the rarefied heights of Chelsea’s or Tottenham’s reserve team. But the drop-off rate could be improved, vastly, by a change in the way we approach youth development.
Two years ago, Liverpool last signed another hugely promising central defender. Sebastian Coates arrived from Nacional in Uruguay for £7 million in August 2011, just weeks after being voted the best young player at the Copa America. He prompted all of the excitement and hope and expectation that Ilori has trailed in his wake, too.
Coates will leave Anfield this summer. Liverpool will not recoup £7 million on him, much less make the profit they would require to cover the costs of his wages for two years. Was he a bad signing? Was that young promise all an illusion? Did he just get lucky in the Copa America? Was he a myth?
No, of course not. Coates has talent, but like all talent, it needs to be nurtured. The best way to do that is to play. Coates did not. He sat on the bench for much of his first year, and often did not manage that in his second. Without action, without oxygen, he stagnated, and withered.
In Spain, he would certainly have played, even if it was just for the B side of Barcelona, Real Madrid, Sevilla or Valencia. In Germany, too, where Bayern Munich and Borussia Dortmund have B teams playing competitive football. In Italy, he might have been half-owned by Genoa – say – and half-owned by AC Milan. He would have played at Genoa while Milan waited to see if he grew into a player of sufficient quality to grace the San Siro. The shared ownership system means big clubs do not always have to pay a premium for talent, but ensures that young players can still play.
England has no such provision. Roberto Martínez, now the Everton manager, has long identified the hiatus in a player’s development between the ages of 18 and 22 as the point where English football struggles; teams can get prospects through their academies, but have no way of finessing them into the first team. They sit, and they wait. Some get a chance, but most disappear. Liverpool will have to hope Tiago Ilori does not just become another name, another lost hope.
This blog is exclusive for digital subscribers to The Times and The
Very depressing, and all our clubs are guilty of it.
Ride The Walrus
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That article is completely correct. Competitive matches for 'B' sides would be the best option on my opinion. Can you imagine Liverpool, United, Chelsea etc whatever, matches against sides like Pompey, Bradford, Preston, whoever it is week in week out would be much more effective than reserve matches against other reserve sides where no one really tries.
Re;Coates, whenever he's played this year he's been really poor. He's always looked shaky but this year he's not looked good at all, probably best for both parties he moves on. Though I would prefer to loan him out, see how he does, then reassess him, but I think he'd prefer to just leave at this point.
Re;Coates, whenever he's played this year he's been really poor. He's always looked shaky but this year he's not looked good at all, probably best for both parties he moves on. Though I would prefer to loan him out, see how he does, then reassess him, but I think he'd prefer to just leave at this point.
Why do people have this idea that because teams buy foreign players, our England squad is poor? Our England squad is poor because England are a poor international side! We have been ever since the country pulled it's head out of it's **** and decided we would compete in the World Cup (with the exception of '66).
Having said that, with the exception of United & Liverpool, most of the home-grown talent in the past 20 years has come from smaller clubs; West Ham, Southampton, Crewe, Crystal Palace etc. this is because those clubs give their players the freedom to play first team football, and that is massive. There is a huge problem with getting younger players to play competitive matches in this country, and the fault is probably down to Sky. In building the richest league in the world, you will undoubtedly decrease the quality of your national side, it's a necessary casualty that comes with selling out.
I'm not entirely sure why Liverpool are the target for this article though?.. I mean, I know there is nothing specificly condemning aimed towards us but the fact of the matter is, Ilori isn't a Liverpool player. Not to mention the fact we are one of a very small percentage of "big" English clubs who are willing to try out young English players; Sterling, Wisdom, Robinson, Shelvey, Henderson etc. Also, I don't see the problem with Ilori only playing 20 "competitive" matches, Ronaldo had only played 25 games before United signed him... Although that's somehow different?
But yeah, it's an article that makes a lot of good (if not original) points, but no solutions? I don't really like articles that are happy to moan about aspects of the game without really providing us with anything we didn't know. The irony in all this is, Ilori is English.. I find that the most amusing aspect of the "OMG STOP BUYIN FORUNERS!" mentality everyone is starting to have.
At the end of the day we have to choose which is more important, England or the Premier League?
Having said that, with the exception of United & Liverpool, most of the home-grown talent in the past 20 years has come from smaller clubs; West Ham, Southampton, Crewe, Crystal Palace etc. this is because those clubs give their players the freedom to play first team football, and that is massive. There is a huge problem with getting younger players to play competitive matches in this country, and the fault is probably down to Sky. In building the richest league in the world, you will undoubtedly decrease the quality of your national side, it's a necessary casualty that comes with selling out.
I'm not entirely sure why Liverpool are the target for this article though?.. I mean, I know there is nothing specificly condemning aimed towards us but the fact of the matter is, Ilori isn't a Liverpool player. Not to mention the fact we are one of a very small percentage of "big" English clubs who are willing to try out young English players; Sterling, Wisdom, Robinson, Shelvey, Henderson etc. Also, I don't see the problem with Ilori only playing 20 "competitive" matches, Ronaldo had only played 25 games before United signed him... Although that's somehow different?
But yeah, it's an article that makes a lot of good (if not original) points, but no solutions? I don't really like articles that are happy to moan about aspects of the game without really providing us with anything we didn't know. The irony in all this is, Ilori is English.. I find that the most amusing aspect of the "OMG STOP BUYIN FORUNERS!" mentality everyone is starting to have.
At the end of the day we have to choose which is more important, England or the Premier League?
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Liverpool arent the the target, jeez. It's an example, Liverpool just happen to be a recent example. And the point is that he is being targeted as a Liverpool player.
You've missed the point entirely if you think the article is about lets not buy foreign players.
And no its not a necessary casualty, not in the slightest. The point is the you dont have to choose. The fault hasnt got anything to do with Sky. Sky doesn't determine your team make up. That's a lazy get out. The fault is down to the bigger clubs who buy these players and then don't even play them
At the end of the day you dont have to choose. England is one the few countries with the massive resources needed to have both.
Also there is a difference between Ilori and Ronaldo at the time... that being Ronaldo was seen as one of their brightest talents ever.
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Tbh I'm more concerned with the actual state of the game itself. There's so many pro's and cons. The actual state of the infrastructure as a whole is killing all the leagues, and the PL has become an uncontrolled monster. The PL isn't really a league in my eyes any more it's more of a commercial product which has had devastating repurcussions for the rest-and it's going to take many years for it to be fixed-many years. Yes clubs like Everton, Liverpool and some others in the PL have given oppurtunities for youth to flourish as did Man Utd with Beckham, Scholes etc, and as an example for Everton, developed players from Championship level to international quality. But at the same time, other big clubs like to poach these players-but hardly use them and they end being club jumpers and never realise their potential. But I'm going OT there.
Imo, yes the quality of football has been incredible since the PL has been introduced and we've had some amazing talent being bought, but at the detriment of homegrown players. I'd rather see more focus on England, and more importantly, on the leagues outside of the PL. And at the same time, there are boardrooms that are demanding immediate success, and demand massive names being bought for the club, thinking if they do that, they're going to win straight away. And of course, there's really high transfer fee's for the sought after homegrown talent aswell-players abroad can be equally talented, but go for much cheaper prices.
The list of reasons for this whole mess is endless, and they're all mashed together.
Anyhoo, enough from me. I think I've lost track and have started to ramble now
Imo, yes the quality of football has been incredible since the PL has been introduced and we've had some amazing talent being bought, but at the detriment of homegrown players. I'd rather see more focus on England, and more importantly, on the leagues outside of the PL. And at the same time, there are boardrooms that are demanding immediate success, and demand massive names being bought for the club, thinking if they do that, they're going to win straight away. And of course, there's really high transfer fee's for the sought after homegrown talent aswell-players abroad can be equally talented, but go for much cheaper prices.
The list of reasons for this whole mess is endless, and they're all mashed together.
Anyhoo, enough from me. I think I've lost track and have started to ramble now
That's just it. The idea that you have to choose doesn't hold up. The sad fact is no wants to take responsibility for it.
This why I hate rose tinted glasses. Yes it's great looking back on the good days like 86, 90 etc where England were loaded with players like Lineker, Reid, Butcher....then you take them off and you have the current situation. It's a sorry state of affairs.
English youngsters are inferior to some other top nation youngsters. Probably because they are not technically good as German or Spanish are. Staff that develop youngsters need to change their way of coaching. I haven't seen technically gifted player in England squad since Joe Cole. Also, the lack of quality youngsters are obvious. They are all (most of them) average at best, unlike Spain, Germany or even Italy who produce quality youngster after quality youngster. English methods of dealing with youngsters are out of date.
If so, why didn't you post this in BPL thread?
So because it was posted here it makes them the target? Mike most likely put it here because it talks about Ilori and his soon to be arrival at Liverpool of which this thread is about.
Also the BPL gets a lot less traffic thus making this again a better suited place.
Ilori is about to be a Liverpool player, it also talks about the flipside of the coin in Sebastian Coates
Also the above is not quite true upto ages 17-18. Its between there and 23 where everything goes to ****.
Thank you.
Thank you. But this is more than a Liverpool matter, thus I asked it.
I disagree. They are 'all promising', but they are not real talents. Someone didn't do his job well, it's on you to find out who.
No, at under 17 England are actually very good. Have a look. They have beaten sides that have included current talents like Thiago, Pogba on a fairly regular basis. It's what comes after that's the issue. The likes of Thiago get to play regular football. Connor Wickham goes and sits on a bench for 18 months. How many games have Ross Barkley and Josh McEachran had, Andre Wisdom and Benik Afobe? They were 4 of the best players for the entire tournament when England won it in 2010. You are judging them in hindsight. At the time, they were all real talents at the tournament, and all during qualifying for it.
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