The Manchester United Thread

[brunoh]

And almost every single player underperformed. We saw for 2 months, what they could do, and they beat almost everything in front of them. Using the very players you mentioned, the key is extending that into a season with people staying fit.

This idea that transfers are the sole key is a fantasy, current players will have to step up regardless

If you take the right two months of every season, we would look like a serious threat in the league. The trick is to do it for an entire season, and this squad has never pulled it off.

 

[Mike.]

If you take the right two months of every season, we would look like a serious threat in the league. The trick is to do it for an entire season, and this squad has never pulled it off.

But that's not really true is it? Not like that 2 months And it was only a massive range of injuries that started the fall off. Again, if you think transfers are going to solve it all you're in for a massive shock.

Of course the trick is to pull it off for a whole season, that's literally what I said. Part of good coaching is taking players that look like they are one level and lifting them. Thats what happened for a while, before injuries struck now the aim is to maintain that.

 

[brunoh]

But that's not really true is it? Not like that 2 months And it was only a massive range of injuries that started the fall off. Again, if you think transfers are going to solve it all you're in for a massive shock.

Of course the trick is to pull it off for a whole season, that's literally what I said. Part of good coaching is taking players that look like they are one level and lifting them. Thats what happened for a while, before injuries struck now the aim is to maintain that.

You can't develop something that isn't there, Mike. There's no way to coach Smalling so he can perform like Van Dijk. This players have been coached ther whole life, and most of them have played under 3 managers in Man Utd alone.

 

[Sherkey]

But that's not really true is it? Not like that 2 months And it was only a massive range of injuries that started the fall off. Again, if you think transfers are going to solve it all you're in for a massive shock.

Of course the trick is to pull it off for a whole season, that's literally what I said. Part of good coaching is taking players that look like they are one level and lifting them. Thats what happened for a while, before injuries struck now the aim is to maintain that.

This. Can't over-stress this. Part of good coaching is take players and elevate them beyond perception. This is what is happening under Poch at Tottenham and what always used to happen under Fergie over here. If we can't do this properly, then no amount of transfers is going to do us any good. Remember, players also want to be under a manager who can improve them, which is why you have players wanting to play for Guardiola and Klopp as of now.

De Gea, Shaw, Lindelof, Dalot, Pogba, McTominay, Martial, Rashford, Lukaku - that's a pretty decent spine right there. Add to that players who can improve in Fred, Bailly, Sanchez, Lingard and it's not that bad, just not that devastating. The point is to complement the current squad this season, and fill the gaps. And then improve upon it the next season. It's a slow churn.

Also, let's be realistic, No way are we improving the complete overall balance of the squad in one window. We don't have the resources, nor is it realistically possible. Get players' fitness up, motivate them and get them back on all gears again. Honestly, I don't think we have that bad of a squad as last season made us sound. Key transfers, and top-4 isn't a problem, but reaching City and Pool is, which we have to build for from then on.

Also, fitness, I'm still puzzled as to what Mourinho was making them do. Literally no conditioning at all, almost like he was getting them fish-n-chips during that time and asking them to stay back instead of run.

 

[Mike.]

You can't develop something that isn't there, Mike. There's no way to coach Smalling so he can perform like Van Dijk. This players have been coached ther whole life, and most of them have played under 3 managers in Man Utd alone.

You can coach him to better with the ball at his feet. You can work on defensive shape that fits how you actually want to play. I feel you have a narrow view of coaching that doesn't really map to its reality. It's not a fixed concept

No one is saying he's going to be VvD, but, even incremental improvements across a squad stack up massively.

 

[Mike.]

This. Can't over-stress this. Part of good coaching is take players and elevate them beyond perception. This is what is happening under Poch at Tottenham and what always used to happen under Fergie over here. If we can't do this properly, then no amount of transfers is going to do us any good. Remember, players also want to be under a manager who can improve them, which is why you have players wanting to play for Guardiola and Klopp as of now.

De Gea, Shaw, Lindelof, Dalot, Pogba, McTominay, Martial, Rashford, Lukaku - that's a pretty decent spine right there. Add to that players who can improve in Fred, Bailly, Sanchez, Lingard and it's not that bad, just not that devastating. The point is to complement the current squad this season, and fill the gaps. And then improve upon it the next season. It's a slow churn.

Also, let's be realistic, No way are we improving the complete overall balance of the squad in one window. We don't have the resources, nor is it realistically possible. Get players' fitness up, motivate them and get them back on all gears again. Honestly, I don't think we have that bad of a squad as last season made us sound. Key transfers, and top-4 isn't a problem, but reaching City and Pool is, which we have to build for from then on.

Also, fitness, I'm still puzzled as to what Mourinho was making them do. Literally no conditioning at all, almost like he was getting them fish-n-chips during that time and asking them to stay back instead of run.

Transfer talk has become such a be and end all that people have taken reductive views in football. Everything is about transfers, as opposed to working on what you have. People assume because something is one way, it therefore cannot change. What is it football that makes everyone see things in black and white? It's all very odd.

Even without a single transfer, there's a massive scope for change that needs to be done. Imagine not being fit enough maintain a pressing game as a top 6 outfit? Forget who you sign, you're not getting top 4 if you can't solve that. And that's done purely by coaching

 

[steveorobbo]

You can coach him to better with the ball at his feet. You can work on defensive shape that fits how you actually want to play. I feel you have a narrow view of coaching that doesn't really map to its reality. It's not a fixed concept

No one is saying he's going to be VvD, but, even incremental improvements across a squad stack up massively.

Smalling was actually pretty good with the ball and bringing it out under LvG. So just shows you what decent coaching can do. You're right


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[Scouseinthehouse]

*Smiles. Jurgens ethos is spreading far and wide.

 

[Mike.]

*Smiles. Jurgens ethos is spreading far and wide.

This was something we did at United long before Klopp even LVG was coaching the players. We're essential talking about the failure of Mourinho to actually coach the players

 

[zzeezzy]

This was something we did at United long before Klopp even LVG was coaching the players. We're essential talking about the failure of Mourinho to actually coach the players

I think the difference is Klopp knew what needed to be replaced and even if it took longer than expected, he eventually did.

I feel what we are doing is still trying to work with the likes of Joe Allan and Sturridge even when you know that they aren't good enough for top level. The latter more due to attitude but still relevant in our case.

Never thought I'd be using Liverpool as a comparison to our situation but there we go.

 

[Scouseinthehouse]

This was something we did at United long before Klopp even LVG was coaching the players. We're essential talking about the failure of Mourinho to actually coach the players

Oh heck, we've put the emphasis on coaching and development/ continuity since the '70's. We got away from that when we lost our identity for a while the PL but have regained that in ravenous fashion again.

It wasn't so much that it's a new thing under Klopp. More this now being discussed in here, which is new, and the emphasis on the importance of coaching up what you have and not just wanting to 'buy, buy, BUY!'

The L'pool model is fast becoming the standard for a lot of big clubs change in emphasis. Which is natural as football follows trends and the most successful clubs are always the standard-bearers used for that. Which is pleasing to see as a legacy.

 

[Mike.]

I think the difference is Klopp knew what needed to be replaced and even if it took longer than expected, he eventually did.

I feel what we are doing is still trying to work with the likes of Joe Allan and Sturridge even when you know that they aren't good enough for top level. The latter more due to attitude but still relevant in our case.

Never thought I'd be using Liverpool as a comparison to our situation but there we go.

Except that patently isn't true for the most part
Firstly Solskjaer knows what he wants to replace
Secondly there is scope for virtually all the first team to improve. We know this because we saw it for two months.

Now we need to work on the limiting factors that prevented that from going further, ie fitness. Concentration, etc. And augment that with transfers.
Those who aren't able are either in then process or leaving or have been moved to squad status as transfers are executed

 

[Mike.]

Oh heck, we've put the emphasis on coaching and development/ continuity since the '70's. We got away from that when we lost our identity for a while the PL but have regained that in ravenous fashion again.

It wasn't so much that it's a new thing under Klopp. More this now being discussed in here, which is new, and the emphasis on the importance of coaching up what you have and not just wanting to 'buy, buy, BUY!'

The L'pool model is fast becoming the standard for a lot of big clubs change in emphasis. Which is natural as football follows trends and the most successful clubs are always the standard-bearers used for that. Which is pleasing to see as a legacy.

I don't know about legacy, United are (at least manager and below) simply going back to the roots of Busby and Co, it's only in the last 4 years that's eroded. It's less looking at Liverpool or city and more looking at what we did brilliantly for so long.

 

[Sherkey]

I don't know about legacy, United are (at least manager and below) simply going back to the roots of Busby and Co, it's only in the last 4 years that's eroded. It's less looking at Liverpool or city and more looking at what we did brilliantly for so long.

True. And this was true then, and during the Fergie era. It was really good coaching, trusting the youth, focus on team than superstar egos, recognize and execute what you need (and to **** with extra available) and build a WC, world beating team. It's no co-incidence that almost all of the successful teams of United (and Liverpool too, I reckon) have to some extent or the other, followed this model. And invariably experienced failure when it moved beyond it, or drastically changed strategy.

Problem with today's day and age is that there is a lot less time afforded. And while this happens for managers, it happens even more acutely for players. The pressure from fans can get over-bearing to drop non-performing players, without giving them time to adjust/adapt. And the insane pressure to get new players in to replace the older ones (without concern to the fact as to whether or not they can be improved, coached better, what not) - this is not a dig at United's player or zZ's comments, but more of a statement as to things in general.

I still feel Tottenham are the true revolution bearers this season. The first in a long while to have no first team transfers (more because of the stadium, and not as a policy, but still), yet still improved drastically on last time, and punched way above their weight. When everyone (including me) was expecting them to falter and fall. Despite injuries to key players for vital periods during the campaign. Another testament to team belief and good coaching.

 

[Sherkey]

Except that patently isn't true for the most part
Firstly Solskjaer knows what he wants to replace
Secondly there is scope for virtually all the first team to improve. We know this because we saw it for two months.

Now we need to work on the limiting factors that prevented that from going further, ie fitness. Concentration, etc. And augment that with transfers.
Those who aren't able are either in then process or leaving or have been moved to squad status as transfers are executed

Also to mention that even Klopp worked with what he had for a while, tried to wring every last bit before selling players. And some players, even they haven't been able to move on. Mignolet is still at the club, and tbf, nobody expected Lovren to still be a the club when Klopp came in.

I also remember Scouse mentioning on the Liverpool thread about this a long while back too, about how Klopp was taking his time and assessing on his own before blindly getting rid of players.

Also, regarding the Sturridge example, that's a bad one to use. Yes, Klopp isn't playing him too much, but he is still at the club as a backup, isn't he? (well, not anymore, but yeah). In that way, if our player incomings work, then neither Smalling or Jones will be starting, neither will Young (or for that matter, Sanchez). But they will all stay in and around the club for backup (a la Sturridge and Lallana when they are not injured).

It would be worrying if the club hadn't identified problem areas, but that clearly isn't the case. The need for a and adequate wide player, a capable centre back, a good RB and CMs, which were needed and have been identified. Now, as you mentioned, the club have clearly identified targets, but may not be able to secure all this season, but there is a clear plan with regards to problem positions and the chance to fix/upgrade them.

 

[Mike.]

Have we really identified the targets though? I've heard next to nothing about midfield and the winger position is just James..... which is not really solving the issue for me. Unless we sign another of course which is still possible, but there hasn't been any real links. CB is a position that is a must this summer and to me there hasn't been any great progress on that front either. We're running out of time tbh, like I say this AWB deal is taking far too long, still not got a deal agreed yet.

I think you guys are far too forgiving for last seasons shambles and the current squad, but that's just my opinion!

Yes. That is patently obvious. The fact that you've not been paying attention doesn't mean it's not happening. It's quite nice that were not trying to publicly court everything under the sun, but if you pay enough attention you see the targets.

Again were not running out of time, please stop lying about this. Repeating it doesn't make any more true

You say solving the winger issue: what is the winger issue exactly?

Yeah but your opinion is always to ignore what's happening in favour of the worst case scenario you've decided on in your head. You can't have an accurate assessment if you only take the bits that suit your agenda forgive me if I don't put much stock it.

 

[Mike.]

True. And this was true then, and during the Fergie era. It was really good coaching, trusting the youth, focus on team than superstar egos, recognize and execute what you need (and to **** with extra available) and build a WC, world beating team. It's no co-incidence that almost all of the successful teams of United (and Liverpool too, I reckon) have to some extent or the other, followed this model. And invariably experienced failure when it moved beyond it, or drastically changed strategy.

Problem with today's day and age is that there is a lot less time afforded. And while this happens for managers, it happens even more acutely for players. The pressure from fans can get over-bearing to drop non-performing players, without giving them time to adjust/adapt. And the insane pressure to get new players in to replace the older ones (without concern to the fact as to whether or not they can be improved, coached better, what not) - this is not a dig at United's player or zZ's comments, but more of a statement as to things in general.

I still feel Tottenham are the true revolution bearers this season. The first in a long while to have no first team transfers (more because of the stadium, and not as a policy, but still), yet still improved drastically on last time, and punched way above their weight. When everyone (including me) was expecting them to falter and fall. Despite injuries to key players for vital periods during the campaign. Another testament to team belief and good coaching.

When it comes to patience fans are the worst. It's still June and people are ******** about transfers already.

What United are currently doing is by no means flawless, but fans could do worse than simply shutting up for a couple of months in terms of this summers business alone, let alone talk about the future

 

[Scouseinthehouse]

Bruno Fernandes is going to be a huge player whoever signs him.

1) He solves 2 issues. Goals from midfield and fits Ole's system of high pressing.
2) He can play behind a striker, left or right in the midfield.
3) Improving constantly in tactical aspect. Extremely intelligent player, something United are missing since Scholes retired.
4) If Pogba starts dicking around, United will have ready replacement.
5) Wouldnt cost that much.

Its a no brainer signing, really is.

Out of curiosity as I've not seen him outside of the two Portugal games the Nations League Finals earlier this month (Where I thought he really stood out for them. Along with Dias at the back. Played two completely different roles in two different tactical set-up's too which adds to your 3rd point above); do you honestly rate him that highly? Presumably you have watched him to judge?

 

[zzeezzy]

Yes. That is patently obvious. The fact that you've not been paying attention doesn't mean it's not happening. It's quite nice that were not trying to publicly court everything under the sun, but if you pay enough attention you see the targets.

Again were not running out of time, please stop lying about this. Repeating it doesn't make any more true

You say solving the winger issue: what is the winger issue exactly?

Yeah but your opinion is always to ignore what's happening in favour of the worst case scenario you've decided on in your head, forgive me if I don't put much stock it

I thought we all knew that we needed a right winger, I know James can play there and he is better than what we've got... as we don't have one. But I still think when you watch him he's better on the left but even if we do use him on the right, we can't rely on him as first-choice next season. He'll be a great rotation option but I think we should still bring in a Pepe or someone like that to play there.

I don't know to me it just kind of feels last 6 years we're going in circles, new manager, new philosophy, when that fails then we say how the squad isn't good enough. New manager comes in and has a bit of success suddenly we think the players are good enough again.

Understand you have to give players time but the ones we are talking about have pretty much been a part of every failed manager tenure since Fergie. There is only so much you can do with them at this point. Can't teach an old dog new tricks.

 

[zzeezzy]

Out of curiosity as I've not seen him outside of the two Portugal games the Nations League Finals earlier this month (Where I thought he really stood out for them. Along with Dias at the back. Played two completely different roles in two different tactical set-up's too which adds to your 3rd point above); do you honestly rate him that highly? Presumably you have watched him to judge?

His assist and goal output last season at club level was insane, I'm imagining there are quite a few clubs wanting his signature.