The Manchester United Thread

Good to see our lads doing well on international duty. Hopefully come back with a bit of confidence and ready for the new season. And get some actual proper coaching in them before the season starts.
 
Legend Incredible said:
Quite a brilliant analysis on David De Gea in the light of Luis Enrique’s comments
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Fair play, he wants a GK that can be a playmaker.

Not everyone crave for that kind of a football. The most dominant side in last 10 years in Europe is not using a "modern GK". Courtois is a shot stopper just like DDG ( and I'd argue not as good) but he's much better at claiming crosses.
Alright, if ETH wants a keeper capable of starting attacks, I'm all for it.

But this general hard on for a "sweeper keeper" is a nonsense. Build a strong midfield and results will come. Getting a "proactive" goalkeeper is a cherry on the top, if needed.
 
It's not 'nonsense' mate in today's game. It would have been a decade back and before. But the games constantly evolving.

The more young, progressive coaches come into the game, the more they want goalkeepers who are footballers to fit with their style. Naturally it's down to the individual coach's ideal. And Ancelotti, as referenced, is an old school coach who had his set way of playing. But the games evolving to the extent it's now pretty much a prerequisite for any goalkeeper starting out to be able to play with his feet. Or else you'll struggle to make it at any decent level in the game. Which was never the case for de Gea and his peers.

Edison's a great example. Nowhere near a top goalkeeper with his hands. But absolutely invaluable to what Guardiola wants to do as he's a natural footballer with his feet who I'm convinced could play outfield if he wanted.

Whether that's to anyones taste is another thing again as a goalkeepers main job should always be to keep the ball out of the net. But it can't be denied that the role of the goalkeeper has massively changed with the younger, attack minded breed of progressive coaches.
 
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I don’t think it’s necessary for a n EtH team after doing a look at Ajax a fair bit this morning. There current keeper is not just bad with his feet he’s been a complete liability tbh especially back end of the season. Maybe coz he knows he leaving🤷🏻‍♂️

It seems as BPCB and a competent CM who can receive the ball resist the press and then dictate/start attacks from there is key. Hence why he’s most probably pushing hard for Timber and De Jong especially.
 
It is a nonsense, team that beat you is using a pure shot stopper who happens to be a giant so he can claim crosses with ease. You don't need a Alisson or Ederson or Neuer to be a successful team. In fact, only two teams to win the champions league in last 10 years who used a "sweeper keeper" were Liverpool and Bayern and both Neuer and Alisson are great shotstopers. Everyone else were using a "normal, conventional" goalkeeper.

Sure, it helps to have a GK who can distribute the ball like Ederson can, but it is not pivotal. If it did matter so much, Arsenal would be a top team. Goalkeepers who can't save shots have no business at top level.
 
Sound. If you can't see how the games evolving mate as younger, more progressive coaches enter the game, no amount of explaining will help here. I hesitate to put Chelsea in with with the top two given they are more falling back toward the pack, but de Gea wouldn't fit in at any the top three clubs currently in the PL for example. And that's not to say de Gea isn't still a very good goalkeeper. He is. But it''s no coincidence those clubs are managed by the newer breed of coach with different ideas on the game. We wouldn't have been anywhere near winning all 4 trophies with your goalie in our nets as our whole system would collapse with his lack of ability to sweep up and use his feet.

Given the evolution of football right now, if you're a young goalkeeper starting out in the game that can't play with his feet now, your career is going to be extremely limited unless that trend in coaching philosophies changes.That can't be denied.

On the last line, they never have had any business in any era of football. To a general point, which you aren't doing here, it always amuses the living P out of me when people say x is a great shot stopper ..... Well, yeah, that's his F job! That's a given and the very basic requirement. If you can't stop shots, you're on the wrong profession. It's everything else that separates 'just A N Other goalkeeper' from the rest.
 
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Not saying its alright for GKs to be compete duds with the ball at their feet, but being a good shotstopper > being a good with the ball. Unless you're Pep Guardiola.
Game is evolving constantly in a sense that one style always counters the other. You had Barca's tiki taka, which was beaten on many occasions by ignoring their midfield via either counterattack, strong striker who can hold onto a ball or simple quick passing when they lose the ball. Then you have Klopp's geggenpressing which, again, was beaten on numerus times by press resisting midfield.
Its a full circle with tactics, they just get upgraded little by little until something else is upgraded a bit more so it beats the first one.
 
Therein makes the point ironically. Liverpool would be beaten on numerous occasions playing the way we do, high risk/ high reward football, if we didn't have both 4 rapid CH's (Or 3 given that's the one thing Matip doesn't possess. But he's that outstanding positionally he rarely if ever gets done for pace by far quicker opposition forwards), and a goalkeeper sweeping things up behind them. The exceptional discipline and organisation we show to catch the opposition offside more then double the next team in the league in that regard also greatly aids that. But without the safety net of Alisson sweeping up on the few occasions that does fail, the whole system would collapse.

That's the way more and more younger, progressive managers are playing. And it's changing the role of a goalkeeper therein.

Again, we'd be screwed with de Gea in our nets. Which is absolutely no slight on him at all. He's just too limited to fit into the progressive, attacking style we favour.

I think the only difference here is your thinking old school. Which is natural and sound. But it's becoming outdating the way the game is evolving.
 
Vanjagl said:
…Courtois is a shot stopper just like DDG ( and I'd argue not as good) but he's much better at claiming crosses.
Alright, if ETH wants a keeper capable of starting attacks, I'm all for it.

But this general hard on for a "sweeper keeper" is a nonsense…
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You forget when Pep signed for city back in 2016, one of the first things he did was bin Joe Hart, whom wasn’t even bad despite the myriad of issues at city at the time. Problem is Joe Hart, similar to DDG, was an old school goalie. So it’s not exactly nonsense.
You also bring up courtois and while he’s not great with his feet, he offers that commanding presence in his 6 yard box that DDG doesn’t which brings a sense of calm to defenders with his presence in the 6 yard box alone.

On the twitter thread, it mentioned how we concede too many shots in the 6 yard area and I do remember that away game vs wolves; DDG made a brilliant save from a close range corner but could he have claimed the initial corner ball to prevent that chance to begin with? Perfect example of how he uses his shot stopping to mask his flaws.

The ideal time for DDG to have evolved was with LVG and that goalkeeping coach (can’t quite remember the lad’s name) but he didn’t see any need to.
 
Sweeper-keeper isn't some new fashion that happened last year, that tactical shift was already starting to take place when De Gea was an 18-year old playing for Atletico. He just hasn't worked on improving his distribution and command of the box. Hollywood saves may look good on the TV but it's often papering over the cracks in his game.
 
Moreover, many older goalkeepers were able to improve that aspect of the game and adapt to modern footabll. Handanovic tops the chart in that Twitter thread and he's had his debut back when Cristiano was a hot prospect and Zidane still had hair.

So there's really no excuse for De Gea to still be so far below the bell curve on this. It's another symptom of culture of mediocrity at United when even their supposedly best player doesn't give a rats *** about improving his game.
 
That's all great and I'm not agruing that. All I'm saying is that you dont need Neuer to be successful. It helps, but there're other, more important tactical decisions.

Good old fashioned GK is more than enough. In any case, its a team game and team need to cover eachother weaknessess.
 
Vanjagl said:
In any case, its a team game and team need to cover eachother weaknessess.
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I mean, sure. If you’re a pragmatic side that plays with a low block then you don’t need a sweeper keeper. In that case, an old fashioned keeper is enough (see Atletico) BUT, you can’t play with a high line with DDG covering all that space in behind.

Like Scouse covered earlier, put DDG in Liverpool’s starting XI and they’d concede multiple 1v1 chances. That’s not due to their defense being terrible by any stretch. If Klopp were to theoretically accommodate this, Liverpool wouldn’t press as higher up as they could which is Klopp’s trademark.
 
There isn't one, correct way to play the game. Football constantly evolves and no matter how dominant one style is, in a few year there will be something better.
 
Vanjagl said:
Likewise, put De Gea in RM team and he wins CL.
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Idk about that. Courtois made a series of cross claims that I don’t see DDG doing. But sure, they’d hardly skip a beat as a team since RM do sit in a low/middle block. He wouldn’t need do much sweeping.

Also, I think people do underrate Courtois’ short/medium range passing.
 
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