The Manchester United Thread

[Alcaraz]

Rooney hardly played with world class players. We had ******* Cleverley and Carrick in the midfield who barely scored or Valencia and Young on the wings.

Rooney still played in a better team over the same period. He had a stable manager in Ferguson. He played alongside world-class players like RVP. Mata had to carry the Chelsea attack and the creative burden all by himself in the first season. Had to contend with frequent managerial changes. Had to compensate for an incredibly unbalanced midfield and no main striker. Still recorded fantastic numbers and won trophies

 

[Alcaraz]

Yeah and they had ******* Mikel, 80 year old Lampard and Moses who didn't make the bench in Liverpool. Rooney doesn't have **** on Mata as $10. But its a bit like with Ozil - it only works if you build the team around him and set him free as 10 - he will set defenses on fire. Benitez did that with Mata and it worked brilliantly.

Don't you know that Mata was playing alongside world-class players like Malouda, Kalou, Drogba and Torres in his first season? He had the steel wall of Lampard and Mikel covering behind him and brilliant full-back support play from Bosingwa and a declining Ashley Cole

Only thing that improved in his second season was the wingers. Strikers remained the same. Midfield remained the same

 

[Tyton]

Well that's a silly thing to say. The mistakes being made are as a side.

Don't be absurd. You don't lose 5 goals a game without people making individual mistakes. Van Gaal may have went and said that because he didn't want to bash his players in the press. But I'd imagine behind the closed door his reaction was a bit different.

It's not about top proven names, thats rep based rubbish (funnily enough Jones has been the best defender, despite Evans being the "name"). Players, whether you are the seasoned pro, or the new kid, need to execute the basics, and as a side we are not. Names don't come into it. This is stuff that is first and foremost solved on the training ground, becuase no one is playing to the best of their abilities right now, not even close

That's exactly the point, we already know who these players are and what they're currently capable off. There's one guy who's proven but injury prone (Evans) and couple of maybe-one-days. They're not going to magically improve overnight. Compare that to the attack that has bunch of Champions League and Golden Boot winners. That's an unbalanced squad if I ever saw one.

 

[sunilvk7]

Yeah and they had ******* Mikel, 80 year old Lampard and Moses who didn't make the bench in Liverpool. Rooney doesn't have **** on Mata as #10. But its a bit like with Ozil - it only works if you build the team around him and set him free as #10 - he will set defenses on fire. Benitez did that with Mata and it worked brilliantly.

His first season he played with Lampard, Ramires in the midfield and we all know how good Lampard is at scoring goals.
In his second season along with these players Hazard and Oscar were added. It's not as if he played for Stoke and played with mediocre players.

Rooney still played in a better team over the same period. He had a stable manager in Ferguson. He played alongside world-class players like RVP. Mata had to carry the Chelsea attack and the creative burden all by himself in the first season. Had to contend with frequent managerial changes. Had to compensate for an incredibly unbalanced midfield and no main striker. Still recorded fantastic numbers and won trophies

Rooney played in better team because of Rooney. He made the team better.

 

[MANUMAD]

Hope not, it utterly sucks and we don't have the players to use it effectively, particularly at the back.

You dont know that as we ve never used it properly ie with the "correct" players in the "correct" positions due to injury.

 

[MANUMAD]

Both, they seem unsure of what they need to be doing. And agree, they are not the greatest, but they are not even doing the basics right. Maybe they are still adapting to the new ideas

I actually think its more of a confidence thing ... esp with Blackett who is too raw and has been thrown at the deep end against all prescriptions about how young players (esp defenders) should be blooded in. And dont lets forget that Evans always looked much better when playing next to Vidic and that, for various reasons, Jones and Smalling never had so much responsibility on their still young shoulders as they have now. We started wrongly and its a domino effect due to confidence. Also playing too attacking and shallow as a team certainly doesnt help esp against fit, quick teams playing long ball footy.

Also I feel that as team we should be more aggressive in tackling etc ...

 

[Mike.]

Don't be absurd. You don't lose 5 goals a game without people making individual mistakes. Van Gaal may have went and said that because he didn't want to bash his players in the press. But I'd imagine behind the closed door his reaction was a bit different.



That's exactly the point, we already know who these players are and what they're currently capable off. There's one guy who's proven but injury prone (Evans) and couple of maybe-one-days. They're not going to magically improve overnight. Compare that to the attack that has bunch of Champions League and Golden Boot winners. That's an unbalanced squad if I ever saw one.

I actually watched the game and saw where we conceded the goals. So no. Not absurd at all

 

[Alcaraz]

His first season he played with Lampard, Ramires in the midfield and we all know how good Lampard is at scoring goals.
In his second season along with these players Hazard and Oscar were added. It's not as if he played for Stoke and played with mediocre players.



Rooney played in better team because of Rooney. He made the team better.

Lampard may be good at scoring goals but he is utterly woeful in a double pivot. Why do you think he was benched most of the time under AVB and RDM was sacked in the end? Ramires is more a functional rather than quality player as his last two seasons would attest where he has barely done much

In either case, a sole Ramires doesn't change how incredibly unbalanced the squad was during the period where Mata had to take the sole creative burden in his first season and content with no proper striker in both seasons. He also had to deal with frequent managerial changes all of which Rooney didn't have to do. Mata still put up incredible numbers

 

[Alcaraz]

I remember when their were rumours last summer about how Chelsea had offered Mata in a direct swap for Rooney and United fans were saying the club was absurd for rejecting such a deal. Now suddenly Rooney >>>>>>> Mata after one season where both barely did anything of note. Baffling

 

[sunilvk7]

I remember when their were rumours last summer about how Chelsea had offered Mata in a direct swap for Rooney and United fans were saying the club was absurd for rejecting such a deal. Now suddenly Rooney >>>>>>> Mata after one season where both barely did anything of note. Baffling

I said it was bad deal back then and I will say the same thing again now. Just because I said it doesn't mean all United fans agree with it or the people who said Rooney should have been sold are saying Rooney > Mata.

Baffling really when logic goes out of window.

 

[sunilvk7]

Lampard may be good at scoring goals but he is utterly woeful in a double pivot. Why do you think he was benched most of the time under AVB and RDM was sacked in the end? Ramires is more a functional rather than quality player as his last two seasons would attest where he has barely done much

In either case, a sole Ramires doesn't change how incredibly unbalanced the squad was during the period where Mata had to take the sole creative burden in his first season and content with no proper striker in both seasons. He also had to deal with frequent managerial changes all of which Rooney didn't have to do. Mata still put up incredible numbers

Meh we have done this before. You can give all the excuses you want. As a striker, #10 it's Rooney. As a winger it's Mata as Rooney is ******* dreadful there.

 

[Alcaraz]

I said it was bad deal back then and I will say the same thing again now. Just because I said it doesn't mean all United fans agree with it or the people who said Rooney should have been sold are saying Rooney > Mata.

Baffling really when logic goes out of window.

Yep logic went out of the window when you started saying that Lampard was a quality player in the last two seasons despite playing in the pivot. No I actually didn't target you in any sense. I was just surprised that a players standing at OT has fallen so much through no fault of his own. In January, Mata was being hailed as a messiah. Quality player who really doesn't deserve to rot on the bench in his prime. I hope he is sold if he doesn't fit at United

Meh we have done this before. You can give all the excuses you want. As a striker, #10 it's Rooney. As a winger it's Mata as Rooney is ******* dreadful there.

Hardly excuses except valid mitigating circumstances. I didn't even say that Mata >>>> Rooney. All I ever did was say that you are making an incredibly unfair comparison if it's based solely on the past 3 seasons. Mata's play was very comparable to Rooney's despite playing in a worse team and having to deal with frequent managerial changes. Nonetheless, I feel they are on par in terms of ability

Now if the question is which player is a better FIT at Unitsd then you would know better. I assume it's Rooney since he is captain and playing more games. Ability wise, I doubt he is >>>>Mata as you suggest

 

[DMF]

Lampard may be good at scoring goals but he is utterly woeful in a double pivot. Why do you think he was benched most of the time under AVB and RDM was sacked in the end? Ramires is more a functional rather than quality player as his last two seasons would attest where he has barely done much

In either case, a sole Ramires doesn't change how incredibly unbalanced the squad was during the period where Mata had to take the sole creative burden in his first season and content with no proper striker in both seasons. He also had to deal with frequent managerial changes all of which Rooney didn't have to do. Mata still put up incredible numbers

You mean Mata's first season when Chelsea won the Champions League?

 

[sunilvk7]

Yep logic went out of the window when you started saying that Lampard was a quality player in the last two seasons despite playing in the pivot. No I actually didn't target you in any sense. I was just surprised that a players standing at OT has fallen so much through no fault of his own. In January, Mata was being hailed as a messiah. Quality player who really doesn't deserve to rot on the bench in his prime. I hope he is sold if he doesn't fit at United

Again started with twisting arguments. I said we all know about Lampard's goal scoring record, not that he was Xaviesque player. If you are not talking about me then why did you quote me and the post I made "Rooney >>>>>> Mata"? Did you see any ManUtd fan saying that here? No. I'm the only one who said Rooney was better and I'm sticking to that.

And No. No one is saying he should be on bench. If you go by what most ManUtd fans says then it should be Mata, Rooney and Falcao should start and RVP should be on the bench. Not sure where you getting all these ManUtd fans not rating Mata thing from. I have always rated Rooney higher and I still rate him above Mata.

Hardly excuses except valid mitigating circumstances. I didn't even say that Mata >>>> Rooney. All I ever did was say that you are making an incredibly unfair comparison if it's based solely on the past 3 seasons. Mata's play was very comparable to Rooney's despite playing in a worse team and having to deal with frequent managerial changes. Nonetheless, I feel they are on par in terms of ability

Now if the question is which player is a better FIT at Unitsd then you would know better. I assume it's Rooney since he is captain and playing more games. Ability wise, I doubt he is >>>>Mata as you suggest

If it's a choice between Rooney and Mata then it's Rooney for me. If it's an overall choice then it's Mata, Rooney and Falcao. And re rest of your post, I don't really care to repeat same old posts again. If you want I can post the link of old conversation. It's same posts almost word by word. Lets show some mercy on poor souls here

 

[DMF]

Robin van Persie's decline could be a good thing for Manchester United - http://t.co/XnhAh7KJIR

 

[Mike.]

I remember when their were rumours last summer about how Chelsea had offered Mata in a direct swap for Rooney and United fans were saying the club was absurd for rejecting such a deal. Now suddenly Rooney >>>>>>> Mata after one season where both barely did anything of note. Baffling

Yeah you taking Sunil's view for everyones. Which really isnt the case. That's his view, which he says.

 

[Mike.]

Yeah sorry Alcaraz, you're getting this one wrong. On this thread alone Sunil is in the minority who thinks Rooney should play over Mata. I certainly for one do not think that.

 

[Vanjagl]

As a striker, Rooney should play as long as he leaves creating for someone else. Anywhere else on the pitch United have better players. Including Mata as attacking midfielder.

 

[Alcaraz]

You mean Mata's first season when Chelsea won the Champions League?

And I am sure even the most hardcore CFC fans will suggest, we rode our luck a lot. That team had no business being in the CL finals

Again started with twisting arguments. I said we all know about Lampard's goal scoring record, not that he was Xaviesque player. If you are not talking about me then why did you quote me and the post I made "Rooney >>>>>> Mata"? Did you see any ManUtd fan saying that here? No. I'm the only one who said Rooney was better and I'm sticking to that.

And No. No one is saying he should be on bench. If you go by what most ManUtd fans says then it should be Mata, Rooney and Falcao should start and RVP should be on the bench. Not sure where you getting all these ManUtd fans not rating Mata thing from. I have always rated Rooney higher and I still rate him above Mata.





If it's a choice between Rooney and Mata then it's Rooney for me. If it's an overall choice then it's Mata, Rooney and Falcao. And re rest of your post, I don't really care to repeat same old posts again. If you want I can post the link of old conversation. It's same posts almost word by word. Lets show some mercy on poor souls here

I still am confused. So do you think Rooney is better than Mata ability wise? Or do you just think Rooney is a better fit for how United want to play? I strongly disagree if you think he is better than Mata ability wise. On the second question, as I said, your judgment would be better

Yeah you taking Sunil's view for everyones. Which really isnt the case. That's his view, which he says.

I still don't agree with them though. I think Mata is really on par ability wise with Rooney if that is indeed the central debate

 

[sunilvk7]

I still am confused. So do you think Rooney is better than Mata ability wise? Or do you just think Rooney is a better fit for how United want to play? I strongly disagree if you think he is better than Mata ability wise. On the second question, as I said, your judgment would be better

I really don't care playing with the words like ability, natural talent. Sorry if that came out bit arrogantly.

All I care is Rooney as a player was better than Mata IMO and Rooney as a player is better fit for how ManUtd play. Saying that I want Mata and Rooney in the team together along with Falcao. RVP should be on the bench.