The Manchester United Thread

If he has improved players (he and his staff), why doesn't he then trust the bench? Or his ability to get the best out of what's behind his first XI?

One contradicts the other there if he's not using the squad.
 
Last edited:
If he has improved players (he and his staff), why doesn't he then trust the bench? Or his ability to get the best out of what's behind his first XI?

One contradicts the other there if he's not using the squad.
That will remain to be seen this season imo. Squad rotation etc. I think he does trust certain players on the bench obviously not all. And has players playing a lot better underneath him.

Just my opinion especially after the restart when he went away from using the bench so much was that every game was a cup final a pressure cooker and he stuck with largely the best players in terms of quality to get us to the 3rd spot.

It will become a more valid talking point when this season begins. Personally don’t think it will be an issue. As before lockdown he was rotating a lot with players getting mins off the bench even though the quality simply wasn’t there.
 
If he has improved players (he and his staff), why doesn't he then trust the bench? Or his ability to get the best out of what's behind his first XI?

One contradicts the other there if he's not using the squad.
No, it doesn't. I didn't have a blanket statement stating he has improved every single player at the club. Has he improved players like Martial, Rashford, Greenwood etc? Definitely. Some players have also regressed, it's part of it.

I said that it may take time. In the initial stages of Klopp/Pep, it was similar - they had a certain 11 they preferred until they got their set players in. It could be the same with Ole (although he has had his time, which I also concede). Plus, every match after the lockdown was very important for us (securing Top-4 basis GD and Europa).

As for bench players, yes, Fred has improved under Ole, but may not fit his criteria of a defensive midfielder (who can drop back to the defense area). Lingard/Pereira regressed, but let's be honest, Pereira never hit the ability that was expected of him even earlier. Outside of that, who? McTominay improved his overall game under Ole.

There's a ceiling you hit, improving players. I would be worried if he hadn't improved anyone at the club, but that isn't the case. I'm more worried about the tactical plan, but anyhow, that's breaking the point. Certain players may not suit his style/squad, which is fair. Every coach has their preferences. Whether he maximises what he has will be shown this season, as he will have no choice but to use the bench due to the crazy schedule.
 
I actually can’t believe Andreas Periera and Jessie Lingard got 40 starts each for us last season.
???

Dan James 46. Wtf that’s way to much for him and what he was brought in as.

A lot of our bench players got loads of starts last season so that blows the rotation myth out of the water.

Mctominey 38 and that with missing 3 weeks injured. Fred got 48 starts.

Mata has 37 starts.
 
Wohoooo gtfi ??



BBC Sport
@BBCSport
Manchester United Women are set to sign World Cup-winning United States forwards Tobin Heath and Christen Press, BBC Sport understands.
 
No, it doesn't. I didn't have a blanket statement stating he has improved every single player at the club. Has he improved players like Martial, Rashford, Greenwood etc? Definitely. Some players have also regressed, it's part of it.

I said that it may take time. In the initial stages of Klopp/Pep, it was similar - they had a certain 11 they preferred until they got their set players in. It could be the same with Ole (although he has had his time, which I also concede). Plus, every match after the lockdown was very important for us (securing Top-4 basis GD and Europa).

As for bench players, yes, Fred has improved under Ole, but may not fit his criteria of a defensive midfielder (who can drop back to the defense area). Lingard/Pereira regressed, but let's be honest, Pereira never hit the ability that was expected of him even earlier. Outside of that, who? McTominay improved his overall game under Ole.

There's a ceiling you hit, improving players. I would be worried if he hadn't improved anyone at the club, but that isn't the case. I'm more worried about the tactical plan, but anyhow, that's breaking the point. Certain players may not suit his style/squad, which is fair. Every coach has their preferences. Whether he maximises what he has will be shown this season, as he will have no choice but to use the bench due to the crazy schedule.

As it seems a common thing at various times to compare to Klopp-

In that first season under Klopp, we had a horrendous injury list that lead to the best available fit XI being reserved for the Europa League final run with back end squad players and kids mixing and matching the league run-in. All with no players signed at all his first year. (From the October so just the January window. Bar a loanee to aid with the CH crisis we had when we were down to 2.). For him to get that group to two major finals, and finish within 2 games of City in 4th was a ridiculous achievement with someone else's squad (and an incredibly poor one at that), were you could see his ability to improve everyone on the training ground. We had 19 players make over 25 appearances with the likes of Benteke, Ibe, Clyne, Moreno, Lovren, Lucas all key players. All with the handicap of the abysmal Mignolet in nets too.

You then look at the second season with players like Origi, Clyne, Can, Lallana and Lovren making up the top 10 appearances as an example of sub-standard players he worked hard with to improve. Milner who many would have had out the door from the get-go making 40 appearances and being a main-stay. 16 players made over 25 appearances that second season. Which resulted in an improvement to get back into the CL spots for only the 2nd time in the previous 8 seasons. (Mignolet was still handicapping everything.).

His third season, or second full year, that had grown to 18 players making 25 plus appearances as the club mirrored up another CL season through the PL (the first time they'd had back-to-back CL seasons in a decade), by reaching the European Cup final in Kiev. With such studs as Moreno, Klaven, Can, Solanke and Lovren still main-stays as regular starters. (Mignolet now had the equally woeful Karius to rotate in ineptitude.).

I could go on but the point is if you're going to use Klopp in comparison, use him in the right context. He never has been scared to utilise every player at his disposal as he fully believes in his ability, above any else, to coach and educate through hard graft on the training pitch before he turns to the market. (People would say he has no interest int he domestic cups. I think from his point of view, he firmly believes in whatever side he picks and his own ability to coach them up to have as good a chance as the opposition they're playing. Call it arrogance in his own teaching ability or whatever but that confidence in himself is unwavering. And well-founded given there are very few players that he's had, either inherited or bought, including everyone that's left, that hasn't improved under his coaching.). Which you naturally have to eventually turn to utilise to improve further on what you have. But until you can get better players in to take you onto the next level, work with the players you have and at the least get the maximum out of their ability. That's the art of coaching in a nutshell.

Which your fella' either patently isn't doing, or he patently isn't trusting either those outside the perceived top 12/13, or his/ his staff's ability to get the best out of them.
 
Last edited:
As it seems a common thing at various times to compare to Klopp-

In that first season under Klopp, we had a horrendous injury list that lead to the best available fit XI being reserved for the Europa League final run with back end squad players and kids mixing and matching the league run-in. All with no players signed at all his first year. (From the October so just the January window. Bar a loanee to aid with the CH crisis we had when we were down to 2.). For him to get that group to two major finals, and finish within 2 games of City in 4th was a ridiculous achievement with someone else's squad (and an incredibly poor one at that), were you could see his ability to improve everyone on the training ground. We had 19 players make over 25 appearances with the likes of Benteke, Ibe, Clyne, Moreno, Lovren, Lucas all key players. All with the handicap of the abysmal Mignolet in nets too.

You then look at the second season with players like Origi, Clyne, Can, Lallana and Lovren making up the top 10 appearances as an example of sub-standard players he worked hard with to improve. Milner who many would have had out the door from the get-go making 40 appearances and being a main-stay. 16 players made over 25 appearances that second season. Which resulted in an improvement to get back into the CL spots for only the 2nd time in the previous 8 seasons. (Mignolet was still handicapping everything.).

His third season, or second full year, that had grown to 18 players making 25 plus appearances as the club mirrored up another CL season through the PL (the first time they'd had back-to-back CL seasons in a decade), by reaching the European Cup final in Kiev. With such studs as Moreno, Klaven, Can, Solanke and Lovren still main-stays as regular starters. (Mignolet now had the equally woeful Karius to rotate in ineptitude.).

I could go on but the point is if you're going to use Klopp in comparison, use him in the right context. He never has been scared to utilise every player at his disposal as he fully believes in his ability, above any else, to coach and educate through hard graft on the training pitch before he turns to the market. (People would say he has no interest int he domestic cups. I think from his point of view, he firmly believes in whatever side he picks and his own ability to coach them up to have as good a chance as the opposition they're playing. Call it arrogance in his own teaching ability or whatever but that confidence in himself is unwavering. And well-founded given there are very few players that he's had, either inherited or bought, including everyone that's left, that hasn't improved under his coaching.). Which you naturally have to eventually turn to utilise to improve further on what you have. But until you can get better players in to take you onto the next level, work with the players you have and at the least get the maximum out of their ability. That's the art of coaching in a nutshell.

Which your fella' either patently isn't doing, or he patently isn't trusting either those outside the perceived top 12/13, or his/ his staff's ability to get the best out of them.
Is it really, though? If I look at Klopp's second season in charge compared to Ole's current season, it has similar readings?

Liverpool that season had 17 players clocking more than a 1000 minutes on the pitch - https://www.transfermarkt.co.in/liverpool-fc/leistungsdaten/verein/31/reldata/&2016/plus/1

Compare that to Ole's current season, and he has 16 players clocking more than 1000 minutes - https://www.transfermarkt.co.in/manchester-united/leistungsdaten/verein/985/reldata/&2019/plus/1

If you're talking about sub-standard players making appearances in the United squad, Lingard, Pereira and Mata all had plenty of appearances and minutes last season

You guys mainly had sub-standard players in those areas, and hence they made the top-10 appearances (note that I am in any way dismissing Klopp's efforts in improving and getting the maximum out of them - he did insane work there and took them to another level).

But once you got better players, you prefer them more, and that's natural. Ole here has better players for all his positions in the starting 11. And he has also given plenty of time to substitutes, going by the squad appearances. Even in subs, Fred, McTominay, Williams all impressed and got minutes last season, not to mention Greenwood who emerged as a starter.

The subs conversation got blown out of proportion post Covid when every match became a crunch match and therefore he preferred his best 11. He could have given his subs a run, atleast in the Europa, but I think that came down to wanting his trophy at the end.

The point is, yes, he needs to use subs even more. But the narrative that he doesn't use players outside the 11 at all (or hasn't improved them) is based on the smaller sample set of post Covid matches under trying circumstances. He has given players significant minutes.

Also, Ole has been mainly using players bought under an amalgamation of previous managers. Out of the current first 11, he has brought in three players (Maguire, AwB and Bruno). Remaining players, he is mainly still working with what is present at the club. And his signings have performed well at that, too. They were overpriced (Maguire) but I would blame that on the club rather than shipping that onto Ole.

I've always been Ole's critic earlier, mind, and for this very reason earlier too (at the start of the season, for not actually improving players comparitively). But on that front, he has certainly delivered decent returns.
 
They're really isn't a comparison that you can hold onto Sherkey mate but we'll disagree with that as much as we disagree with the assertion you have a quality main XI and the improvement of certain players to any significant degree. I personally think Fernandes masked a lot with Utd the second half of this year but that's neither here nor there. (Although it is a major step forward in recruitment the last two excellent buys in Fernandes and van den Beek from last summers window which is nothing like the quality it was made out to be for where Utd crave to return to.).

So we'll have to park those disagreements.

The restart is still pertinent to the overall point that he patently neither trusts his/ his staffs coaching ability to get the maximum out of the whole squad. Or the players behind the top dozen or so.

You take away a historical collapse from Leicester, and running his perceived best XI into the ground ultimately has Utd playing Europa League football again this year. All after spending what must be pushing upwards of £200 million to boot. (For comparison we didn't get to that spend until the addition of van Dijk in his 5th window.).

You can't just dismiss the restart as skewing things mate when he run the top XI into the ground the run-in. Made even more ridiculous by the congested games every few days.

On a wider point, I think that levels the playing field even further for surprise teams to challenge for the top 4 this season. The inexperience of managers like Arteta, Lampard and Solksjaer to know when to rotate in a season where rotation will be king and far more prevalent than it's ever been right through the division.
 
As it seems a common thing at various times to compare to Klopp-

In that first season under Klopp, we had a horrendous injury list that lead to the best available fit XI being reserved for the Europa League final run with back end squad players and kids mixing and matching the league run-in. All with no players signed at all his first year. (From the October so just the January window. Bar a loanee to aid with the CH crisis we had when we were down to 2.). For him to get that group to two major finals, and finish within 2 games of City in 4th was a ridiculous achievement with someone else's squad (and an incredibly poor one at that), were you could see his ability to improve everyone on the training ground. We had 19 players make over 25 appearances with the likes of Benteke, Ibe, Clyne, Moreno, Lovren, Lucas all key players. All with the handicap of the abysmal Mignolet in nets too.
When Solskjaer took over from Mourinho, he didn't have any transfers ( and granted, it was hard time to make transfers as a caretake manager) and he made United look like a world beaters, until injuries and fatigue of a very, very thin squad kicked in and he finished in EL places. Like it or not, United did not have the foundation like Liverpool had with Brendan Rodgers. Mourinho was never a "future proofing" option, he was brought in to succeed and he is by far most successful coach United had since Ferguson, but at what cost? Aging squad full of ego hungry players who were broken with Mou's management. Brendan Rodgers was building pressing side similar to Liverpool today, but he simply isn't tactically astute as Klopp.

You then look at the second season with players like Origi, Clyne, Can, Lallana and Lovren making up the top 10 appearances as an example of sub-standard players he worked hard with to improve. Milner who many would have had out the door from the get-go making 40 appearances and being a main-stay. 16 players made over 25 appearances that second season. Which resulted in an improvement to get back into the CL spots for only the 2nd time in the previous 8 seasons. (Mignolet was still handicapping everything.).
If you can call defender of a World cup vice-champions a sub standard player, then you can make case for anyone in the world. Also Can was anything but sub-standard at the time. He was regular starter for Germany if I'm not mistaken.
Anyway, Solskjaer got United into CL spot in spectacular fashion, with the best league record counting from January. Matic, who everyone had out the door became one of the key members of that United squad. When two best players got injured ( Imagine Liverpool playing without Dijk and Salah) he still managed to get results. United team is no where good as City's or L'pool's, nor as deep, so him getting the 3rd place is a magnificent achievement. Oh and btw, De Gea had his worst ever season.

His third season, or second full year, that had grown to 18 players making 25 plus appearances as the club mirrored up another CL season through the PL (the first time they'd had back-to-back CL seasons in a decade), by reaching the European Cup final in Kiev. With such studs as Moreno, Klaven, Can, Solanke and Lovren still main-stays as regular starters. (Mignolet now had the equally woeful Karius to rotate in ineptitude.).
Moreno is such a S*hit player, he only won Europa League with Sevilla and u-21 European Championship with Spain prior to winning pretty much everything with Liverpool.
Klaven was a Klopp's signing, as was Solanke.
Can was so terrible that he went to Juventus and then to Dortmund after Liverpool. Its unbelievable how Klopp can make a world class player out of a pub drunkard.
And Lovren has silver ******* medal from World Championship with Croatia. What a terrible player.
You made it sound like they were all crippled and blind and Klopp as Jesus pour some holy German beer over them to make a miracle.

I could go on but the point is if you're going to use Klopp in comparison, use him in the right context. He never has been scared to utilise every player at his disposal as he fully believes in his ability, above any else, to coach and educate through hard graft on the training pitch before he turns to the market. (People would say he has no interest int he domestic cups. I think from his point of view, he firmly believes in whatever side he picks and his own ability to coach them up to have as good a chance as the opposition they're playing. Call it arrogance in his own teaching ability or whatever but that confidence in himself is unwavering. And well-founded given there are very few players that he's had, either inherited or bought, including everyone that's left, that hasn't improved under his coaching.). Which you naturally have to eventually turn to utilise to improve further on what you have. But until you can get better players in to take you onto the next level, work with the players you have and at the least get the maximum out of their ability. That's the art of coaching in a nutshell.
The only players your fella really boosted was a world record signings ( at the time) and Salah who was tearing Europe apart with Roma, just everyone was "scared" to take the risk cuz of Chelsea situation.
Which your fella' either patently isn't doing, or he patently isn't trusting either those outside the perceived top 12/13, or his/ his staff's ability to get the best out of them.
That's an English media for you. For example:
Fred: 48 appearances
Daniel James: 46 appearances
Andreas Pereira: 40 appearances
Jesse Lingard: 40 appearances
Juan Mata: 37 appearances
Those are players who never expected to feature so much. They simply got the chance because it was a long season.

Also, 18 players had more than 20 appearances. That narrative is BS due to Uniteds last couple of games where Solskjaer featured the same team.
 
This is my worry with Greenwood, is he going to fall off the rails and let all the OUTSIDE stuff ruin his career? Far too early to make the assumption, but nonetheless he needs to have a strict word given by Ole.
 
L'pool had a foundation under Brendan that Utd never had?

Most of that bunkum just got worse from there.
 
This is my worry with Greenwood, is he going to fall off the rails and let all the OUTSIDE stuff ruin his career? Far too early to make the assumption, but nonetheless he needs to have a strict word given by Ole.
His parents more so his farther will be very disappointed. They are very protective over him and his career and influences in football. Hence why they won’t sign him to an agency and do it themselves. His farther gave up a lot in his own life to make sure Greenwood would make the most of his talent and has been strict with regards to his schooling and grades. Pretty sure it will be a one off.
 
Happy to be blissfully helpless. :cool:

I do appreciate the TOP comedy though in the suggestion Brendan laid any sort of foundations or left any sort of quality in the squad as opposed to the reality of the club being, were it not for the Hodgson era (on the pitch. Hicks and Gillet off it notwithstanding) at just about it's lowest ebb the past 30-years when he left with a real toxic atmosphere between manager, fans and players that was bordering on the Hodge's time.

That revisionist history has made my day. Thank you.
 
Happy to be blissfully helpless. :cool:

I do appreciate the TOP comedy though in the suggestion Brendan laid any sort of foundations or left any sort of quality squad in the squad as opposed to the reality of the club being, were it not for the Hodgson era (on the pitch. Hicks and Gillet off it notwithstanding) at just about it's lowest ebb the past 30-years when he left with a real toxic atmosphere between manager, fans and players that was bordering on the Hodge's time.

That revisionist history has made my day. Thank you.
Getting the second place in PL and scoring what, 100 goals with Liverpool that season? Yep, squad had zero potential.
Edit:
Liverpool probably expected to win PL next season, thats why it was "toxic". Liverpool sniffing around PL was before Klopp, whether you like it or not. Klopp did take it to the next level, but to say he did it in the manner you say he did it, now thats comedy.
 
Hope you are right. That said I would be more concerned if I was Southgate as to why two of the squad's newest players weren't getting looked after by the senior players. Both Foden and Greenwood were in their first England Senior Squad which is a totally different experience to the U21s you would have thought the young players would have been getting watched by more experienced players let alone the coaching staff. Some one has clearly taken their eye off the ball in that respect.
If Rashfords there Greenwood ain’t doing that.
 
Getting the second place in PL and scoring what, 100 goals with Liverpool that season? Yep, squad had zero potential.

I thought I wasn't worth the time? ;)

But as you asked, how far removed was that from what Klopp inherited again and just where the club had fallen to?

I'll defend Rogers all day as I've never got the mad hate that exists for him with a lot of Reds given, before Klopp, he came the closest to winning the league in the PL era and he's never said anything derogatory about the club since he left. But13/14 was a complete anomaly through his time here underpinned by Suarez having a Worldie season along with Sturridge and £terling roaming free. With Henderson making it all possible with his tireless intelligence behind. If anything, he cost us the title with his complete inability to organise a defence. As historical as the attack was, the defence was the same in the wrong way conceding 50 goals.

The following season we fell off a cliff and barely made the Europa League spots in a terrible campaign that culminated in a 6-1 final day defeat at Stoke when he should have resigned there and then. Which just rolled onto the next season with L'pool down in 10th place when he was finally sacked. Having won just three of 12 games and just a few weeks before, with a full-strength side out, struggled past League Two Carlisle on penalties after a 1-1 draw. At home! With the infighting in the crowd getting to levels not seen since the H&G carnage.

THAT's how bad things were when he left. A P poor squad going absolutely nowhere but downwards.

Jurgen walked into one of the worst situations any L'pool manager has since Shankly in the arl second division back in 1959.

So no dear. Brendan has had next to nottin to do with what we now are.

As noted, you started out with revisionist history and it just devolved into complete bunkum from there.
 
Back
Top