An [Amateur] Tactician's Chalkboard for FM11

[ibo-cool]

great stuff frankie and by the way if you want to test the the tactic in other saves/teams i am ready to do that.

 

[robing9g]

It doesn't have to be all the time. You also need to have him run from deep often to make it work. Set his mentality to a little defensive, so he drops deeper to the half-way circle, and close down nearly the whole pitch.

Doesnt work, i did everything as u set, it doesnt work for me

 

[iNickStuff]

Doesnt work, i did everything as u set, it doesnt work for me

Well, who is it that you are playing in this position? Who are you playing as?

 

[robing9g]

Well, who is it that you are playing in this position? Who are you playing as?

Pastore/Neymar

 

[iNickStuff]

Pastore/Neymar

Pastore is a playmaker, and Neymar isn't great as an Attacking Midfielder, so therefore using him there is wasting his talent.

I will post a shortlist of players who can roughly play there, but they cannot/do not play well as second strikers.

 

[robing9g]

Pastore is a playmaker, and Neymar isn't great as an Attacking Midfielder, so therefore using him there is wasting his talent.

I will post a shortlist of players who can roughly play there, but they cannot/do not play well as second strikers.

they cant do well, but i think they have enough quality to do that right?
but i tried lots of time of playing a same match, i cant see his average position is like that

 

[iNickStuff]

they cant do well, but i think they have enough quality to do that right?
but i tried lots of time of playing a same match, i cant see his average position is like that

Post a screenshot of your team's average positions, and let me see.

Or post your match on the thread, so I can take a look. But really, you're better off playing Pastore as an Advanced Playmaker on Attack, or as a Trequartista, or Neymar as a Poacher.

Besides, neither of them are hard-working enough to work in that position.

 

[robing9g]

Post a screenshot of your team's average positions, and let me see.

Or post your match on the thread, so I can take a look. But really, you're better off playing Pastore as an Advanced Playmaker on Attack, or as a Trequartista, or Neymar as a Poacher.

Besides, neither of them are hard-working enough to work in that position.

Actually my team is playing well in a 433 formation, but i am setting up a 4-2-3-1 formation, with two mcs, 1 AMR 1AMC 1AML, my target man is Carroll/Babacar up front.

And i want to simulate how Newcastle played this season in real world, but it never happen.

I play UNTIL 2015, and I FINALLY see what i want for the FIRST TIME

YouTube - Man Utd vs Newcastle - Neymar Goal 29th minute

so i am confusing whats wrong with my tactic, or i didnt setup my second striker correctly, or just the Target man setting in 2011 is lame.

 

[iNickStuff]

Actually my team is playing well in a 433 formation, but i am setting up a 4-2-3-1 formation, with two mcs, 1 AMR 1AMC 1AML, my target man is Carroll/Babacar up front.

And i want to simulate how Newcastle played this season in real world, but it never happen.

I play UNTIL 2015, and I FINALLY see what i want for the FIRST TIME

YouTube - Man Utd vs Newcastle - Neymar Goal 29th minute

so i am confusing whats wrong with my tactic, or i didnt setup my second striker correctly, or just the Target man setting in 2011 is lame.

Well there you go. I still feel that Neymar isn't suited for that role, but if you really want to have the Second Striker in your tactic, search for small yet hard-working strikers.

---------- Post added at 04:11 AM ---------- Previous post was yesterday at 09:24 PM ----------

'modern Tactics: Why Brazil are still tactical innovators of the modern game since the late 1950's

• Canarinho, the world's most successful team in terms of international competition, lay within the past and present of the tactical heirachy.
  
• Despite not having really re-captured the days of dominance since the early-2000's, A Seleção are nowhere near the brink of a falling football nation.

Article #6.5: The 'modern Series
Tuesday, 15th February 2011


Don't worry. This is just an article that got me thinking after a comment in this thread questioned how one can play fluid, attacking football, and yet concede very few goals in the process. Then came along others in asking when the next article will come up and what is on my list. Well, combining both, and after a bit of research into the Brazilian game, I have decided to make another half-article that looks into one of the forefathers of tactical brilliance.

I have to say, I will go on a bit of a ramble about the history behind Brazilian football, and their 'golden era' during the late 1950's and 1970, but I am just warning you now. This won't delve into FM very much, but just be a way to kick off a possibly lazy week for me. Off we go.


A Seleção and their memorable 1970 World Cup team

Forgive me for not having been around long enough to remember the time when Brazil won the World Cup in 1970, but the fact that we live in a vastly-changing society that hones the ability to research on such things allows me to at least give a glimpse of what was probably the best summer for the Brazil national team in their history.

Probably one of the most notable members of that team was Pelé. A national treasure in terms of football in the South American country, the then-29 year old was two-time World Cup winner before the tournament, and adored by on-lookers and readers from around the globe in his mesmorising abilities as a player, which also led to the uplifiting in the reputation of the club he formerly played for - Santos. By that time, Pelé had already scored 417 goals in thirteen years at the club, with another eighty-three to go before he'd hit 500. The 1970 World Cup in Mexico was to be a greater glimpse for the world to see him really unleash his magical feet once again, before the national team went into decline and he retired from the game as a professional player.

But in the time of 1970, Brazil were to claim their third World Cup, and show off, arguably, their (dare I say it?) greatest-ever team. Yes. Their greatest-ever team.


The 4-2-4 came from Brazil ...

Well, shared amongst themselves and the Hungarians, a once-powerful national team of whom have slowly declined into a mid-table qualifying team. Even the Hungarian coach in Bela Guttman travelled to Brazil in order to develop it further, and succeeded in being a sort of cornerstone in the national team's win of the World Cup in 1958. A team that featured a 17-year-old Pelé. Through it's use at club level too in the forms of Santos and Palmeiras, it quickly spread through the world as a widely-renowed tactic, and one that would become something known as an 'advanced 4-4-2' in today's modern game.

Spanish teams in Sevilla, Barcelona and Villarreal have used it in recent seasons, and exploited the use of more advanced wingers, in which provided them with a lot more creative freedom, rather than just being stuck in the midst of a 4-4-2. Barcelona used it last season during their UEFA Champions League campaign, when they were tied with German outfit VfB Stuttgart. They won the tie 5-1 on aggregate, but their second leg, in which the Germans were trying to hang on for an away goal (since it was 1-1) needed a change in tactics from Blaugrana. The 4-2-4 was their 'Plan B' and they won comfortably four goals to nil. It was also covered by ZonalMarking, which can be read into further detail here.

But with that tactic came fluidity, talented players and a now heavily-renowned tactic within our game. But what has also followed Brazil, in their winnings of the World Cup five times, thus becoming the most successful national team in the world, is the globalization of fluid football. Commercially, Brazil are huge. They have been in the eyes of the media as a 'fantasy team' since the early 1990's, and when they won the World Cup in 1994, under Carlos Alberto Pereira - the ex-head coach of the South Africa national team. Nike have been the spearheads of commercialising Brazil though, having countless videos of the senior team on Youtube that featured Ronaldinho, the older Ronaldo, Adriano and Kaka - instrumental players during their more famous times in 2006 (Ronaldo much earlier, but still included)

Here are just some examples:

YouTube - ronaldinho nike ad

YouTube - Nike advert Brazil squad 2006

YouTube - Ronaldinho Nike Street Football Skills

YouTube - Airport football / Nike Brazil commercial

This may not be really going into tactical analysis of the Brazil national team, but you now know why the world is always in awe Brazil for such trickery. The innovators of such if you go far enough.


Development of youth

Another huge thing in Brazil, especially for clubs in the top-flight domestically, is the development of youth players to become future world-beaters. The young Brazilian talent of today in the likes of Neymar, Coutinho, Keirrison, Alexandre Pato, Ramires, Paulo Henrique - they are all developed and nurtured through what seems to be world-class systems in Brazil to get the best home-grown talent there is. Once they have proven themselves in their own country, there has (and will be for quite some time) is the same way of the player. Prove yourself domestically > Go into Europe > Play for the national team. Brazilian players who don't go through that same type of phase are either (1) not good enough (2) extremely talented, but held back for some reason (3) not given the chance. The now-retired Emerson and Thiago Motta are examples.

In Brazil, you have the likes of Sao Paulo, Gremio, Santos and Palmeiras that are developing their youth to become these amazing players that have skill, pace (generally) technique and a hunger for goals - especially if they are a striker. Those that have wriggled out of the net to become common names in football are Ronaldinho, Ronaldo and Rivaldo. The three R's. Without the development in youth, Brazil wouldn't have had the likes of Pelé, Garrincha, Carlos Alberto Torres, Roberto Carlos - Brazil wouldn't be the team that it has been for the last fifty or-so years. Not by a long shot. Argentina would be the better by miles.


Canarinho did it once again in the latest World Cup

So Brazil were knocked out in the quarter-finals of last year's World Cup, where the to-be-finalists Netherlands came out with a 2-1 victory to seal a place to the semi-finals. But during the tournament, Brazil came out with a formation that was being constantly changed by tabloid newspapers around the world. The then-head coach of the national team, Dunga, played a formation in which looked both like a 4-2-3-1 (to European tacticians) but a 4-1-2-1-2 (to the global eye). It was neither, according to ZonalMarking and Jonathan Wilson in their pieces on the matter, and rightly so.

The picture, taken from ZM, is the tactic that Dunga played before and during the tournament. Here are the variants:

One can say that it is a 4-2-3-1, with Elano, Robinho and Kaka acting as a 3-man attacking midfield. Elano drops deeper into the bottom of the midfield, and runs back up the pitch to provide either Kaka, Robinho or Fabiano with a pass, whilst Robinho cuts in and out of his position down the left flank to, be an inside forward.

Or is a 4-1-2-1-2? Gilberto converts into a defensive midfielder, whilst Elano, again, comes back to make up the lack of central midfielders and partners with Felipe Melo. Kaka is the playmaker, playing at the tip of the diamond, and Robinho is a much more advanced second striker, cutting in and out of the left wing, and leaving Luis Fabiano to be the spearhead striker.

The two theories, apparently, are both false. It's neither. Brazil had success with it during the World Cup (until being knocked out by Holland) and renewed their stauts as tactical innovators. They won two of their three games in Group G (a 2-1 win against North Korea, a 3-1 win against the Ivory Coast, and a 0-0 draw against their long-distant cousins in talented players, Portugal) All the same using the offset 4-2-3-1/4-1-2-1-2.

So, as I usually do, I gave it a whirl in FM11.

Here is my version of it:

Ireland vs. Brazil

Since I was going to test it, I had a friendly match with Ireland away from home. Ideal time to test it. I place of Kaka, Elano, Gilberto and Michel Bastos, I had Ronaldinho, Ramires, Marcelo and Lucas. Anderson later replaced Ronaldinho, due to a niggling injury in the course of the game.

Already, you can see dominating in the centre of the park and in their own half. The possession seems to be disproportioned in the final thirds of the pitch when Brazil attack.

Again, domination in terms of possession, passing success and tackles. The attacking by Brazil is shown through the eleven shots on Ireland's goal, compared to the seven against Julio Cesar.

And here is where it becomes debatable:

Which one is it? Rhetorical question by the way.


The one and only goal ...

The ball is passed to the partially-injured Ramires ..

Felipe Melo is in possession, having options to pass to, and can slot it perfectly through on goal to any three of the players ahead of him with the right eight on the pass ...

After a scuffle with Kilbane, Anderson takes the shot and it goes in.


But yeah ...

This 'half article' took longer than expected. I started it at eight-something, and now look. I won't upload the tactic unless there is a mass request for it, or I dabble on it a bit more. Will develop the passing game when I get the time to, hopefully this week and the arrivals of a few more articles from FM-Base members would be nice to make the OP look good in terms of the information from both myself and the community.

I am tired, but I just hope you guys enjoyed it. It is a half-hearted attempt, I admit, and may re-do it. Depends.

 

[GodCubed]

Very good, as always. Maybe it's just me, but I'd have questioned your use of Ramires in an attacking midfield position; I'd say he was more suited to a wide midfield role, possibly cutting inside. He's certainly not on the same axis as the playmaker, and is deeper and wider, playing a carrilero role.

Although it makes the formation look a tad ugly, I'd say dropping Ramires back to either RCM or RM would achieve a more realistic effect. Note though, more realistic, not necessarily more effective.

 

[donkarlito]

Liking it I have tried the formation before with wingbacks as fullbacks and Ramires as a Box 2 Box in the MCR position also used v.fluid worked well in fm 2010 not tried it yet so ill quite happy use it if it comes available.

 

[bodao]

Adapting to 2011..

iNuckStuff,

I've been playing with Brazil recently and I'm using a similar formation to the one you created. However I adapted it a little bit to 2011's reality (Luis Fabiano is out, the team is younger and play more fluid, and so on).

The squad is actually adapted to my personal option, but once Kaká returns to the team and Paulo Henrique (Ganso) comes back from his injury many believe this will be the actual Brazilian formation (Copa América) with few changes (André Santos seems to be Mano's choice for DL, and Neymar should win a place in the team after his performance on the SUB-20 championship, maybe Robinho's). Also Hernandes' place is actually Ramires considering recent Brazilian games (that will be good after Kaká and Ganso return because then the midfield improves a little in marking and tackling).

If you take Brazil's lost to France last week the formation was quite similar to this, with Hernandes and Renato Augusto playing as AMC, Lucas and Elias behind, and Robinho playing more wide to the left but coming deep to get the ball and participating on the play making. We lost, that's true, but Hernandes got himself a Red Card on the first half of the game so that pretty much changed everything.

Just to mention a couple of things about the formation you created to represent Brazilian's formation in the World Cup, I would say that this formation is a bit offensive compared to what we actually saw in the world cup. Many Brazilians complained that Brazil played too conservative with Dunga favoring defense over attack. I would say that the two wing back's were actually full backs with support duty (in some games more like defend) and that the MCL was actually a DMF (Felipe Melo and Gilberson Silva as DMFs, with Melo supporting a bit). Also Kaká and Elano (sub Dani Alves) didn't play so forward and it was more like Kaká as an AMC that came back to help (not a trequartista or too offensive) and Elano as a MR (but not as an offensive winger such as Iniesta). Robinho and Luis Fabiano played forward with Robinho coming back more but not so much.

However your tactic fits very well in how Brazil has been playing recently (with Mano Menezes) because the team is more fluid and a lot more offensive. For many years Brazil played with one or two stronger center forwards and now (finally) the team has been trying more a fluid, midfield domination game with fast players. Soon the game will be a lot more like Barcelona's and Arsenal's, and that will be great. But one thing worries me: Brazilian "stars" have serious defending/marking/tackling problem and that makes it hard to close down opponents and regain possession quickly. If you compare Messi and Ronaldinho for instance, Messi presses down and defends quite well (having more turnovers every game) while Ronaldinho is nearly null in defense. The same goes for Kaká, Neymar, Robinho, Paulo Henrique, Pato, and the list goes on. So either the players train and get better on defense and domination or this new formation will be doomed to failure. Put that's discussion for another topic .

Regards,
Big Goat

 

[iNickStuff]

Very good, as always. Maybe it's just me, but I'd have questioned your use of Ramires in an attacking midfield position; I'd say he was more suited to a wide midfield role, possibly cutting inside. He's certainly not on the same axis as the playmaker, and is deeper and wider, playing a carrilero role.

Although it makes the formation look a tad ugly, I'd say dropping Ramires back to either RCM or RM would achieve a more realistic effect. Note though, more realistic, not necessarily more effective.

Yes, I agree completely. I only put him there however so it wouldn't look too off the real thing. Plus, I forgot to add Kaka and Elano to the final squad, so I needed someone to cover. Cutting inside, maybe. I would prefer him to move into the channels, so that he could also expand the wide play (as Elano does) and put in a cross or two with Maicon.

The tactic was really to present nicely aesthetically, rather than a much more different, yet effective tactic.

Liking it I have tried the formation before with wingbacks as fullbacks and Ramires as a Box 2 Box in the MCR position also used v.fluid worked well in fm 2010 not tried it yet so ill quite happy use it if it comes available.

Sounds good. Takes a lot of good players to play it though. Only the best of the best can really pull it off without being hammered a good four to five goals because they commit themselves so high up the pitch and are so attacking.

Barcelona, Real Madrid and Chelsea are probably best bets. Maybe even Arsenal. Don't know.

iNickStuff,

I've been playing with Brazil recently and I'm using a similar formation to the one you created. However I adapted it a little bit to 2011's reality (Luis Fabiano is out, the team is younger and play more fluid, and so on).

The squad is actually adapted to my personal option, but once Kaká returns to the team and Paulo Henrique (Ganso) comes back from his injury many believe this will be the actual Brazilian formation (Copa América) with few changes (André Santos seems to be Mano's choice for DL, and Neymar should win a place in the team after his performance on the SUB-20 championship, maybe Robinho's). Also Hernanes' place is actually Ramires considering recent Brazilian games (that will be good after Kaká and Ganso return because then the midfield improves a little in marking and tackling).

If you take Brazil's defeat to France last week the formation was quite similar to this, with Hernandes and Renato Augusto playing as AMC, Lucas and Elias behind, and Robinho playing more wide to the left but coming deep to get the ball and participating on the play making. We lost, that's true, but Hernanes got himself a red card on the first half of the game, so that pretty much changed everything.

Just to mention a couple of things about the formation you created to represent Brazilian's formation in the World Cup, I would say that this formation is a bit offensive compared to what we actually saw in the World Cup. Many Brazilians complained that Brazil played too conservative with Dunga favoring defence over attack. I would say that the two wing back's were actually full backs with support duty (in some games more like defend) and that the MCL was actually a DMF (Felipe Melo and Gilberson Silva as DMFs, with Melo supporting a bit). Also Kaká and Elano (sub Dani Alves) didn't play so forward and it was more like Kaká as an AMC that came back to help (not a trequartista or too offensive) and Elano as a MR (but not as an offensive winger such as Iniesta). Robinho and Luis Fabiano played forward with Robinho coming back more but not so much.

However your tactic fits very well in how Brazil has been playing recently (with Mano Menezes) because the team is more fluid and a lot more offensive. For many years Brazil played with one or two stronger center forwards and now (finally) the team has been trying more a fluid, midfield domination game with fast players. Soon the game will be a lot more like Barcelona's and Arsenal's, and that will be great. But one thing worries me: Brazilian "stars" have serious defending/marking/tackling problem and that makes it hard to close down opponents and regain possession quickly. If you compare Messi and Ronaldinho for instance, Messi presses down and defends quite well (having more turnovers every game) while Ronaldinho is nearly null in defense. The same goes for Kaká, Neymar, Robinho, Paulo Henrique, Pato, and the list goes on. So either the players train and get better on defense and domination or this new formation will be doomed to failure. Put that's discussion for another topic .

Regards,
Big Goat

Your right. I have looked at it again, and seen that it was a bit exaggerated in terms of positions. I don't know however about Felipe Melo being a defensive midfielder, because he is higher up the pitch than Gilberto Silva, despite the fact that both are given the license to attack quite frequently. Ramires would seem better in the right midfielder role.

Again, I might re-do it, but it depends.

 

[bodao]

No your tactic is fine, it was just a few comments on how the team ended up playing some games, but the tactic is good and I believe that in a few games we played like that (the second game against Côte d'Ivoire and the fourth game against Chile are good examples). In many games Felipe ended up going more forward, and yes, Ramires fits better as MR and he actually played a few games but in the end Dunga preferred Dani Alves as a midfielder (not sure this worked as expected). Maybe your tactic is right but the team setting had a deep defensive line and a defensive mentality... That's what we actually saw in most of the games . And considering it is "Brazil", the team should have played more offensively.

* Are you from England? It amazes me how much you know about Brazil and world soccer in general. Congrats.

Thanks,
Big Goat

 

[iNickStuff]

No your tactic is fine, it was just a few comments on how the team ended up playing some games, but the tactic is good and I believe that in a few games we played like that (the second game against Côte d'Ivoire and the fourth game against Chile are good examples). In many games Felipe ended up going more forward, and yes, Ramires fits better as MR and he actually played a few games but in the end Dunga preferred Dani Alves as a midfielder (not sure this worked as expected). Maybe your tactic is right but the team setting had a deep defensive line and a defensive mentality... That's what we actually saw in most of the games . And considering it is "Brazil", the team should have played more offensively.

* Are you from England? It amazes me how much you know about Brazil and world soccer in general. Congrats.

Thanks,
Big Goat

Yes, I am from England. I don't know very much about Brazilian football, but just have researched it quite a bit for some time, and it interested me, so I decided to make an article on it.

In-terms of football generally, I just follow leagues and the tactics played, in which differentiates (sp) from others. I just love making tactics and them to be playing attractive, yet successful football.

 

[GeorgeMiles6]

epic stuff again

 

[Trophy_Whorder]

7 pages all great reads great job loved the brazil one

 

[iNickStuff]

epic stuff again

7 pages all great reads great job loved the brazil one

Thanks guys, I do try.

 

[ibo-cool]

so, what's next iNickStuffhttp://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/member.php?u=74524 ?

 

[iNickStuff]

so, what's next iNickStuff ?

I don't know yet, I will have to think about it.

I am starting to run out a few ideas currently, and some of the ones mentioned are not really appealing at the moment. It depends.

Would be nice to have some of them covered through people contributing.