Emulating Man United - 2011/12 season

[donkarlito]

Hi everyone im trying to implement this seasons formation into football manager after spending most fm 2011 trying to create a Barcelonaesque style of play I fancied a change for my last save game before fm 2012 and United I think have been really impressive so far.

So Lets begin...

I will be using Zonalmarking as a reference to help but into FM

"Ferguson’s flexible front four hints at a return to the fluidity of 2008"

View attachment 193681

To me looking at the picture it looks like a 4-4-2 with 2 dm's instead of mc's

Quote
"It was interesting to see, then, that Ferguson chose to use a 4-4-2ish system with much more flexibility. Young and Nani can both play either side – Young started on the left, Nani on the right – but both came inside quickly and linked up with the front players. The key was the positioning and movement of the front two. Neither stayed high up the pitch against the Manchester City centre-backs – Welbeck came deep, primarily to pick up Nigel de Jong, whilst Rooney played something of a false nine role. Therefore, United were roughly 4-4-2, and yet had no true strikers – instead, Rooney and Welbeck linked seamlessly with Nani and Young, whilst Vincent Kompany​ and Joleon Lescott​ struggled to cut out their passing. When those been drawn up the pitch, any of United’s front four could make runs in behind."


Reading this Young and Nani are to me wingers that cut inside. Rooney's false nine role well I have been using a tweaked trequartista, ask for Welbeck he is described as a fast striker so im guessing advanced forward possibly with lower mentality maybe man marking opposition holding mid??

Pic of front 4 movements
View attachment 193682

Vs Tottenham
View attachment 193684

Vs Arsenal
View attachment 193683

Looking at the two pictures, first against Tottenham both Anderson and Cleverley are level with possible given the task of taking in turns who picks up VDV. D-line looks deep possible to stop Defoe's pace and it looks narrow.
Arsenal game again looks narrow to me, high line to stop Arsenal from passing the ball.

So far I have got this

View attachment 193685

4-4-2 with to DMs

Fluid
Control or Attacking depending on opposition
Short
More Expressive
Default (Gary Neville said "united like to let the opposition play"
Default
Man ??
Drill crossing ??
More roaming

D-line changes depending on the other team
Narrow width
I have put tempo in the middle with time wasting set to rarely ??
Counter attacking always ticked

Player roles
Gk-Gk
RB - Fullback auto ?
CB's - Central def
LB - Wingback auto
DMRC - Deep-lying playmaker - Def
DMLC - Def mid - sup
MR - Winger att - cut inside
ML - same as above
STLC - false nine (tweaked TQ)
STRC - advance fwd (tweaked)

So what do guys think any advice would be brillant?

*TESTING ONLY*
View attachment 193723

View attachment 193724

The 4-2-3-1 shape is for big games like when SAF uses a 4-5-1 or more recently 4-4-1-1

There is one tweak role which is the "false 9 role" thats it

 

[wayupna]

Looks like a good Tactic i would love to try it...

 

[craig curtis]

when u gonna upload mate?

 

[donkarlito]

I am trying it with default marking instead of zonal now

---------- Post added at 09:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:48 PM ----------

How has the testing been going for people? So far for me 3 matches 16 goals 0 conceded not a big fan of 4-4-2 but possible the way forward for fm 2012 for me anyway

 

[Kang Shaoquan]

Looks interesting. Shall try this tactic out. Btw, when to use the 4-2-3-1?

 

[PafcLad]

The 4-2-4 has won me euro 2012, confederations cup and the world cup 2014, great job

 

[GodCubed]

Funnily enough, I disagree with ZonalMarking. Whilst he thinks United are slipping back into a 4-4-2, I think Ferguson is taking the 4-4-1-1 he used last season even further, and they've ended up playing a 4-2-3-1. If we take the United-Arsenal game as an example:

Nani and Young worked on a roughly similar axis to Rooney, making outside to in runs as Rooney pulled Coquelin away from them. Further reading for that in the spoiler, or just go here for the full article.

Spoiler

Last season, United’s previous 4-4-2 shape they played in the league morphed into much more of a 4-4-1-1, with Wayne Rooney foraging around behind the main striker. This arguably worked best when he played behind Javier Hernandez, whose lightning pace forced the opposition to defend deep and created space for Rooney to drift into. This was, of course, highly successful, with United dominating the league.

In this match, however, it changed slightly again.The difference between a 4-4-1-1 and a 4-2-3-1 is subtle. In this match, however, United looked far more like the latter formation. Rooney’s deep position was on roughly the same latitude as his winger colleagues Ashley Young and Nani. Coupled with Anderson and Tom Cleverley’s deep positioning, United look like they’ve got another slightly different formation on their hands.

Against this Arsenal side, it worked perfectly. Neither Anderson nor Cleverley (in particular) are midfield ‘destroyers’, but in this match which United so utterly dominated the lack of a tackler in midfield was hardly missed. With Rooney occupying debutant Francis Coquelin – or, possibly more likely, with Coquelin given strict Rooney-marking instructions – Anderson and Cleverley overwhelmed their direct opposition, Aaron Ramsey and Tomas Rosicky. Quite apart from anything else, the United duo looked far more cohesive and worked as a team, whereas Ramsey and Rosicky looked unsure as to their roles. With the two United deep midfielders taking it in turns to charge up the pitch and support their forwards, Ramsey and Rosicky were having to deal with one deep midfielder plus both Nani and Young, who cut inside into the midfield. As a result, one player was always left free, and United took full advantage.

There are still a few teething problems. As mentioned, Cleverley in particular isn’t exactly a natural holding midfielder, and when Anderson went up the field Robin Van Persie and Walcott found space, but in the impending return of Darren Fletcher United have a world-class player perfectly suited to the role.

As for implementing this into FM, I'd try:

Philosophy: Fluid
Starting Strategy: Control

Passing: Default
Creative Freedom: More Expressive
Closing Down: Default
Tackling: Default
Marking: Zonal
Crossing: Default
Roaming: More Roaming


Regular back four with a stopper/cover partnership, and the left-back Evra a more attack-minded full-back. In front of that:

DMCL: Defensive Mid - Defend
DMCR: Defensive Mid - Support

AMR: Inside Forward - Attack
AMC: Adv. Playmaker - Attack
AML: Inside Forward - Attack

ST: Adv. Forward - Attack

Get the two DMs to pass shorter, and let both of them run from deep occasionally. Get them to swap positions. The two inside forwards should also swap, and the AMC should be allowed lots of creative freedom and work hard to win back possession.

That's a pretty basic translation into game terms, but it's a framework of what I think it would be at least.

 

[Jimmy_x_]

This looks like it could be an interested discussion thread.

I almost 100% agree with the guy who posted above me. I am a tactical enthusiast, however it annoys me that i cannot replicate my ideas into fm, but I fully understand tactics when it comes to real life. The only thing I disagree with from what was said by the dude above me is how United's formation translates into fm. In fm i would still have united set on a 4-4-2 with advanced wingers as i still believe this is how they play in real life. It is not by formation which puts rooney in the amc position, changing the formation to a 4-2-3-1, BUT it is the instructions and general playing style of rooney which makes him come deep. I think to put rooney as an advanced playmaker or inside forward on fm restricts his playing area. In real life, we see the work ethic of the player as he runs from box to box at time spraying passes and making late runs.

 

[donkarlito]

Looks interesting. Shall try this tactic out. Btw, when to use the 4-2-3-1?

I use it for Euro and games like liverpool away games were it might not be straight forward win

ESPN Gamecast is not a bad tool to look at when look at players average position

1st picture starting position
View attachment 193838

2nd picture is the average position
View attachment 193839

Looking at the average position their is the stopper/cover partnership it also slightly resembles a 4-2-3-1 asymmetric

 

[Vanjagl]

I created something similar. Since Welbeck can play AML and Nani can play AMC( you need to train him a little) I used this:

Wellbeck
Ash Young- Rooney- Nani
​

Where Welbeck is Advanced Forward ( tweeked, with mentality on normal), Ash Young is AML inside forward-attack ( tweeked, mentality on normal, long shots on rare and through balls on normal) and I swap those two players. On the other side, Nani is AMR inside forward-attack ( same tweeks as Young), Rooney is AMC, Advanced Playmaker ( everything by default, except running with ball) and they swap also. So it looks like this:

Ash Young
Welbeck - Nani - Rooney​

Other tactic is similar, difference is:

Rooney
Welbeck, Ash Young, Nani
​

Where I swap Rooney with Ash Young and Welbeck with Nani

Young
Nani - Rooney- Welbeck​

 

[Kang Shaoquan]

Try this tactic out:

View attachment 193991

Played around with the original tactic and added in some of the aspects of the replies. Feel free to improve and re-upload!

 

[donkarlito]

From Zonalmarking
"United continue their impressive start, though even they must have been surprised at how easy it was. Their 4-4-2 shape (with two strikers coming deep) provides forward runs from a lot of different angles, and with Nani and Ashley Young being able to go down the line or inside for a shot, they are very dangerous going forward."

a couple of things I would like to ask about this statement
Two strikers coming deep that can be done with the "comes deep to get the ball" PPM, am I right

"Nani and Ashley Young being able to go down the line or inside for a shot, they are very dangerous going forward."

I think both have "cut inside" PPM so if the team instructions set to hug touchline they should do a bit of both shouldnt well depending on decision making and other attributes

 

[TheBetterHalf]

As the title of this thread was rather missleading, I edited it. Previoulsy, it looked like a " OMG please help me " thread but now, I think you might get a better discussion going on

 

[Jimmy_x_]

The wingers

In terms of the inside forwards, Nani and ashley young, obviously they are key to how the formation works, filling in the space inside left by rooney who drops deep allowing hernandez/welbeck to push the oppositions defence line. How would their play instructions be set?

Run from deep- often? sometimes? rarely?
Run with ball- Im guessing this is obviously set to often

Long shots - rarely ( jst to keep possesion)
Through balls- sometimes or often???
Cross ball- sometimes

Also would it be a good idea to get them to swap positions?

 

[donkarlito]

As the title of this thread was rather missleading, I edited it. Previoulsy, it looked like a " OMG please help me " thread but now, I think you might get a better discussion going on

Thank you makes sense now

 

[Mike.]

Funnily enough, I disagree with ZonalMarking. Whilst he thinks United are slipping back into a 4-4-2, I think Ferguson is taking the 4-4-1-1 he used last season even further, and they've ended up playing a 4-2-3-1. If we take the United-Arsenal game as an example:

Nani and Young worked on a roughly similar axis to Rooney, making outside to in runs as Rooney pulled Coquelin away from them. Further reading for that in the spoiler, or just go here for the full article.

Spoiler

Last season, United’s previous 4-4-2 shape they played in the league morphed into much more of a 4-4-1-1, with Wayne Rooney foraging around behind the main striker. This arguably worked best when he played behind Javier Hernandez, whose lightning pace forced the opposition to defend deep and created space for Rooney to drift into. This was, of course, highly successful, with United dominating the league.

In this match, however, it changed slightly again.The difference between a 4-4-1-1 and a 4-2-3-1 is subtle. In this match, however, United looked far more like the latter formation. Rooney’s deep position was on roughly the same latitude as his winger colleagues Ashley Young and Nani. Coupled with Anderson and Tom Cleverley’s deep positioning, United look like they’ve got another slightly different formation on their hands.

Against this Arsenal side, it worked perfectly. Neither Anderson nor Cleverley (in particular) are midfield ‘destroyers’, but in this match which United so utterly dominated the lack of a tackler in midfield was hardly missed. With Rooney occupying debutant Francis Coquelin – or, possibly more likely, with Coquelin given strict Rooney-marking instructions – Anderson and Cleverley overwhelmed their direct opposition, Aaron Ramsey and Tomas Rosicky. Quite apart from anything else, the United duo looked far more cohesive and worked as a team, whereas Ramsey and Rosicky looked unsure as to their roles. With the two United deep midfielders taking it in turns to charge up the pitch and support their forwards, Ramsey and Rosicky were having to deal with one deep midfielder plus both Nani and Young, who cut inside into the midfield. As a result, one player was always left free, and United took full advantage.

There are still a few teething problems. As mentioned, Cleverley in particular isn’t exactly a natural holding midfielder, and when Anderson went up the field Robin Van Persie and Walcott found space, but in the impending return of Darren Fletcher United have a world-class player perfectly suited to the role.

As for implementing this into FM, I'd try:

Philosophy: Fluid
Starting Strategy: Control

Passing: Default
Creative Freedom: More Expressive
Closing Down: Default
Tackling: Default
Marking: Zonal
Crossing: Default
Roaming: More Roaming


Regular back four with a stopper/cover partnership, and the left-back Evra a more attack-minded full-back. In front of that:

DMCL: Defensive Mid - Defend
DMCR: Defensive Mid - Support

AMR: Inside Forward - Attack
AMC: Adv. Playmaker - Attack
AML: Inside Forward - Attack

ST: Adv. Forward - Attack

Get the two DMs to pass shorter, and let both of them run from deep occasionally. Get them to swap positions. The two inside forwards should also swap, and the AMC should be allowed lots of creative freedom and work hard to win back possession.

That's a pretty basic translation into game terms, but it's a framework of what I think it would be at least.

Pretty much spot on, except i'd change the midfield to DLP support, and give them roaming. they will sit deeper, and then use their intelligence to come forward. Cleverley will get forward a little more because of his natural PPMs.

Both wide players should hug touchline since the have cuts inside as PPM, so they till maintain width. Although I've found winger support with the same creative freedom as winger attack works to a charm replicating Young

 

[donkarlito]

In terms of the inside forwards, Nani and ashley young, obviously they are key to how the formation works, filling in the space inside left by rooney who drops deep allowing hernandez/welbeck to push the oppositions defence line. How would their play instructions be set?

Run from deep- often? sometimes? rarely?
Run with ball- Im guessing this is obviously set to often

Long shots - rarely ( jst to keep possesion)
Through balls- sometimes or often???
Cross ball- sometimes

Also would it be a good idea to get them to swap positions?

Run from deep- often or if you want to keep one higher up the pitch set one to rarely
Run with ball- Im guessing this is obviously set to often
Long shots - rarely or sometimes when attacking
Through balls- often
Cross ball- sometimes

swap postions yes dont see why not they can play on both wings, I think you just gave me an idea with that

 

[Jimmy_x_]

Cheers mate.

As for their wide play would you have this set as "cut inside or "move into channels"

Furthermore, i have sneijder and fletcher as my centre mids. Obviously one is an advanced playmaker and the other is a ball winner/box to box. Bearing in mind that my wingers will be on attack duty. What role and duty should i give my centre mids?

 

[donkarlito]

Cheers mate.

As for their wide play would you have this set as "cut inside or "move into channels"

Furthermore, i have sneijder and fletcher as my centre mids. Obviously one is an advanced playmaker and the other is a ball winner/box to box. Bearing in mind that my wingers will be on attack duty. What role and duty should i give my centre mids?

Wingers I'm trying what Mike said above so I have them both set to hug touchline to maintain width but because they have "cut inside" they should do both

Your other question I personally like a holding midfield someone who stays back does the dirty work passes and lets the rest of team attack so:
Ball Winner - DEF
Centre Mid - DEF
or any of the Deeplying playmaker duties

---------- Post added at 10:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:13 PM ----------

What Berbatov's role is in this tactic (on fm & IRL) because I like him, but just cant see where he fits in. Thinking off selling or putting him reserves and use for cups

 

[Jimmy_x_]

Wingers I'm trying what Mike said above so I have them both set to hug touchline to maintain width but because they have "cut inside" they should do both

Your other question I personally like a holding midfield someone who stays back does the dirty work passes and lets the rest of team attack so:
Ball Winner - DEF
Centre Mid - DEF
or any of the Deeplying playmaker duties

---------- Post added at 10:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:13 PM ----------

What Berbatov's role is in this tactic (on fm & IRL) because I like him, but just cant see where he fits in. Thinking off selling or putting him reserves and use for cups

Cheers mate. I also like the idea of a dedicated defender so im going with what you said to have Fletcher as my ball winning mid on defend. Im not sure how well sneijder will fit in as a centre mid on defence so i will try him as an advanced playmaker support or deep lying playmaker support?

You said you like the rest of the team to attack so do you set rooney's duty as attack? and im guessing complete forward support or deep lying forward as the role ?

As for Uniteds passing i am conviced that it is default in fm as they play short in the middle and direct on the wings? is this correct?

Also, sell berba, i got rid of him first season for 20 mil to malaga. Get some more all round forwards in like cavani.