Germany v England Thread

[Mike.]

Through virtue of having more though, you will have a bigger chance of producng better players though. The thing is though, like you say, there are players you are producing that are very good, but your clubs are choosing foreign talent over talent thats on your doorstep.

no they are choosing chearper and/or better talent, depending on which club. and thats down to how the players are taught. its about quality not quantity

any senible person will tell you that the 6+5 is a short cut. anyway its a moot point because its rejected as the EU deem it illegal

 

[Quietus]

and özil was spelt oezil

That's the correct way of spelling (non-german) özil if you do not wish to use the ö letter

 

[Deslandes]

That's the correct way of spelling (non-german) özil if you do not wish to use the ö letter

just as kie*ling is spelt kiessling and müller is spelt mueller. If we see things like that, all that discussion is pointless...

 

[KingEric]

Haven't read the previous comments but surely video technology is needed. Wait I said that after the Ireland France game and some (obviously not all) english fans laughed and called it sour grapes. Well the grapes must be very sour for those people

 

[Mike.]

oh coz there was a guy that aston villa always signed in fm08 with that in his name what background is that letter from i.e. latin etc etc

german

 

[eFusion]

Oh well, at least there's still Euro 2012 to look forward to. And by that time, England will probably be a much better team compared to now.

 

[Mike.]

Oh well, at least there's still Euro 2012 to look forward to. And by that time, England will probably be a much better team compared to now.

not if things dont change

 

[Zebedee]

ah ok, i wil try and have a look on ebay. i just wonder about the long term situation of english football, and this isnt just a kee jerk reaction to today (though it certainly brought it back to my thoughts/ its something that has bugged me for a long time. for all the money in the game we lag far behind in too many areas

There's an attempt to explain it in a book called 'Why England Lose'. Wouldn't recommend buying it, but it is worth lending from a library to have a read through for an introduction to some of the factors which may be involved. Michels' book is very much about how to recreate Ajax/Total Football and best methodology for training, developing players as well as just general football philosophy eg three styles of play - defensive, counter-attack, control (and yes, FM does implement a lot of Michels' ideas within it ).

if loew could see, why didnt capello react to it?

Loew's targetting the tactical weaknesses of specific players and the 'gung-ho' nature which overtakes English players during matches. Capello has to change personnel to alter this - and that in turn goes back to why do some players get chosen for the team...

One example which I remember well was when Benitez substituted Gerrard and put on Lucas in order to get a winner in a Merseyside derby. Lucas created the winning goal. Benitez' explanation was that Gerrard was getting so caught up in the emotion - that desire to win, to lead, to kick every ball, win every header - that tactically he had become indisciplined and was having a counter-productive effect on the way Liverpool were playing. Benitez got a winner that day from his substitute. What if... Liverpool hadn't scored? Or even worse conceded? Ignoring the external criticism likely, what impact would it have on the team to have their recognised match winner substituted when they're trying to win and it failed?

Later on as criticism became more intense, as the pressure mounted, Benitez seemed to become less inclined to make those changes and external (and even internal) criticism of his 'strange' substitutions which seemed to have little impact on the game seemed to rise.

Compare that to Capello substituting Defoe and putting on Heskey. Defoe is a pacey player who plays on the shoulder of the defender. But if there's no room for the ball to be played in behind the defence, he is really a fairly one dimensional player. Just as Michael Owen is/was. The team was unable to really play through the midfield and the Germans were allowing the fairly inept passers in the team to have possession and pump balls forward (ie Terry and especially Upson). Defoe can't win those kind of balls. However, Heskey has made a career out of doing that and acting as a focal point for the attack and allowing possession to be retained higher up the pitch. Crouch does the same thing, but despite his great height, he needs the ball played along the ground to function - balls in the air tend to lead to the referee penalising him for challenging the defender (odd fact but true - the taller the player going for a header, the greater the chance of the referee awarding a free kick against him).

Capello rolled the dice, it didn't work (despite England's ability to control possession improving) and you're left with the after-match reports which criticise the decision to take off a goal scorer who was being effectively nullified for a player who offered a way to nullify Germany's tactics.

There were a few like that. But it seems like Capello bottled pulling off one of the big names - one of his supposed match winners. But then he bottled that in selection in the first place. And I guess that takes us back to that question of 'why?'. Clique? Shortage of genuine quality or adequate players of different types? Will be interesting to find out when people start writing self-justifying ghosted autobiographies

 

[JP Woody]

Oh well, at least there's still Euro 2012 to look forward to. And by that time, England will probably be a much better team compared to now.

Who is coming through ? There is a few promising ones but nothing to get excited about. We could do with some good young strikers coming through.

 

[Archefluxx]

Who is coming through ? There is a few promising ones but nothing to get excited about. We could do with some good young strikers coming through.

true, we need some new strikers. Defoe can only really finish. Hes small and fast, but hes easily muscled off the ball. Rooney is simply overrated. Hes firey and lets pressure get to him.

Abgondalor isnt amazing. Fast, but thats about it. Walcott cant read the game. I honestly dont know where this country is all going.. we just seem to be nursery for other internationals to become good.

 

[Mike.]

its not about standout names, its about turning them into a team. our standout names can barely play together. at least the under 21 look and play is if they actually like each other, and want to play for each other, and for stuart pearce

 

[Aannddyy]

People are saying there is no good players coming through? Okay three massive points you are missing

1) Our U-21's got to the final of the Euro's last year, so that means we have the second best youngsters in Europe, they must be pretty good..
2) We have a team of 'stars' now and look where that got us, maybe we'd be better off with big names..
3) Jonjo Shelvey; nuff said there..

 

[IanC]

I have been skim reading through this for the last hour and my thoughts are the same as most that have already been posted.

Capello has been outclassed with his tactics. Tactically inept at his decisions and substitutions and inability to get the best out of his players. Playing 4-4-2 and yet there was no width on the field at all with Gerrard drifting inside to his more natural position. Rooney dropping too deep to collect the ball and a complete shambles of a defense that was opened up more times by the germans than Moses parting the Red sea. This whole world cup there has been a distinct lack of playing as a team.

So where do we go now?

Do we sack the manager?

If we do who do we get in?

So many questions but at the end of the day the blame in my eyes still lays with the FA.

They are the most outdated organisation in the world. Apart from FIFA and Sepp Blatter.

A few years ago the FA jumped on the bandwagon of doing things the dutch way from grass roots level. Good in principle but they have still not pumped the money into grass roots football to make this viable. Its the premiership clubs who have pumped their own money into youth academies and not the FA.

Still now we are seeing boys being taught to pump the ball upfield and chase it at 100 mph and not being taught the basics of possesion and passing and developing their natural technique. They are being taught this because the FA has still not got to grips with grass roots football unlike the other countrys because they insist the money is not needed at that level. How do I know this. Its because I used to run a boys team and cant believe how little help is available from the FA to fund youth team football.

Its a sad situation to be in but we will not see a change in English football for many many years to come and will still be in the same situation ten years from now unless their is a dramatic turn around in how the authorities in charge run the game.

We will still have the odd player that comes through with natural technique eg. Gascoigne, Beckham and Rooney but their will be plenty who can develop this that wont be able to because of the mindset we have in football.

Just had this e-mailed to me.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...ho-is-not-afraid-to-upset-the-apple-cart.html

 

[Mike.]

well zonal marking saw this coming:
Germany v England

If the two sides perform to the standard as they have so far in the competition, then England are in for a thrashing. First and foremost, their ball retention must be far better.


Germany v England: Gareth Barry will be charged with stopping Mesut Ozil
As with all 4-2-3-1 v 4-4-2 battles, the main task for Fabio Capello is to work out how to deal with Mesut Ozil – the match-winner for Germany against Australia and Ghana. Those two teams both allowed him far too much space between the lines, and it’s likely that Gareth Barry will have the task of tracking him, something he did well against Algeria.

This would mean a numerical disadvantage further forward in midfield, where Frank Lampard would be forced to pick up the runs of both Sami Khedira and Bastian Schweinsteiger, so it’s likely one of England’s two strikers will be given more defensive responsibility when out of possession.

The natural man to do this is Wayne Rooney, who has consistently shown his defensive awareness throughout his career, particularly when playing on the wing for Manchester United. However, Jermain Defoe has done well in recent months in this respect. Capello won’t want Rooney to become overburdened defensively, nor will he want Defoe playing a permanently withdrawn role and negating the threat of his pace in behind the German defence – so it’s likely they’ll take it in turns to pick up the Germans’ deepest holding midfielder – most likely Schweinsteiger, if fit.

Germany’s most important player in a defensive sense could be Thomas Muller, on the right-hand side. He’s impressed at Bayern Munich for his discipline, and he’ll be up against Ashley Cole, possibly England’s best performer so far. With Steven Gerrard always likely to drift in from the left, stopping Cole is vital because it gives England no natural left-sided option, and with them struggling to keep the ball in the centre of the pitch, makes their attacking threat rather basic.

German pressing will also be key – the distribution from England’s centre-backs so far has been appalling, and putting them under pressure early on will expose this even further.

This all assumes that Fabio Capello will stick with 4-4-2 – but he shows no sign of ditching the system.


and they've got a pretyty good take on the game afterwards as well: http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/06/27/germany-4-1-england-tactics/#more-3713

 

[IanC]

The above should have been e-mailed to Capello. Zonal marking saw it coming maybe he should look at this site the next time he sends an England team out on the pitch. IF he gets a next time.

 

[Clarky.]

Seriously, now, If you're not going to take anything seriously, about our nation. Just don't post, You're annoying us all, and I got an infraction because of you.

Bit early for this thread, me thinks? But, I can't see us winning, That Ozil lad looked like a star

This was a comment to someone who predicted 5-0 Germany..

Oh the irony if Germany would have got 5..so close

 

[Jack]

Just got in from a long shift at work. Had a quick skim read and I think I feel the same as everyone else here.

What the **** was that. Who said we could win the world cup? A ******* teabag stays in the cup longer than we do.

No pride, passion, or even belief from any of the players out there.

That overrated bunch of players we have the 'pleasure' of calling our national team will not give two ***** about being played all over the park by Germany. They will only care about their club pay cheque at the end of the day.

I think I have a right to feel aggravated too, after the months of build up,and all the hype surrounding our golden generation of players.

I've said it before and I will say it again. We need a manager who knows what it should mean to play for England - someone who knows what to give when it comes to playing for the national team. The players who were on the pitch today certainly don't understand that.

You can say that the 'goal' affected us - but why didn't we just get on with it? They should know decisions sometimes may not go the right way, that's football for you, so the reason a goal to bring it to 2-2 was disallowed was at fault for our downfall cannot be used. We had half time to erase that and come back knowing all we needed was another one.

I feel a bit stupid feeling so ****** off about a football game. But hey. At least this is proof there is absolutely no need whatsoever for the amount of build up the England team gets.

Oh well. Better luck next time eh.

 

[Mike.]

Just got in from a long shift at work. Had a quick skim read and I think I feel the same as everyone else here.

What the **** was that. Who said we could win the world cup? A ******* teabag stays in the cup longer than we do.

No pride, passion, or even belief from any of the players out there.

That overrated bunch of players we have the 'pleasure' of calling our national team will not give two ***** about being played all over the park by Germany. They will only care about their club pay cheque at the end of the day.

I think I have a right to feel aggravated too, after the months of build up,and all the hype surrounding our golden generation of players.

I've said it before and I will say it again. We need a manager who knows what it should mean to play for England - someone who knows what to give when it comes to playing for the national team. The players who were on the pitch today certainly don't understand that.

You can say that the 'goal' affected us - but why didn't we just get on with it? They should know decisions sometimes may not go the right way, that's football for you, so the reason a goal to bring it to 2-2 was disallowed was at fault for our downfall cannot be used. We had half time to erase that and come back knowing all we needed was another one.

I feel a bit stupid feeling so ****** off about a football game. But hey. At least this is proof there is absolutely no need whatsoever for the amount of build up the England team gets.

Oh well. Better luck next time eh.

stuart pearce, id like him to to take the best of his youngster and mix it into the england side, keep SOME but not all of the experienced players ( im struggling to think who, but off the top of my head, ashley cole, gareth barry) we have two good friendlies against hungary and bulgaria, decent teams, not amazing, but certainly not minnows i.e the kind of team who will embarras you if you dont turn. i'd really like to see a fresh side. not too many youngsters, you dont wanna "burn" them, but certain a very different side to the one that was there today.

i wouldnt pick rooney. i dunno wether it was form, or fitness, or burnout, but he needs to back to united and discover some form and confidence and then come back

 

[Jack]

stuart pearce, id like him to to take the best of his youngster and mix it into the england side, keep SOME but not all of the experienced players ( im struggling to think who, but off the top of my head, ashley cole, gareth barry) we have two good friendlies against hungary and bulgaria, decent teams, not amazing, but certainly not minnows i.e the kind of team who will embarras you if you dont turn. i'd really like to see a fresh side. not too many youngsters, you dont wanna "burn" them, but certain a very different side to the one that was there today.

i wouldnt pick rooney. i dunno wether it was form, or fitness, or burnout, but he needs to back to united and discover some form and confidence and then come back

A fresh squad is what's needed. More importantly, a team. Not just 11 players.

Bit of a contradiction from my earlier post, but we shouldn't really blame Capello. Ok he picks the team etc. But still, there were 11 overpaid ***** out on the field today who couldn't care less about the World Cup. Wasn't the refs fault either, or the linesman. We just simply are not good enough and it is going to be the same every year, until we install a new set of coaching staff who care about England and who should share the pride of the players who have the HONOUR of representing us at world level.

 

[Mike.]

A fresh squad is what's needed. More importantly, a team. Not just 11 players.

Bit of a contradiction from my earlier post, but we shouldn't really blame Capello. Ok he picks the team etc. But still, there were 11 overpaid ***** out on the field today who couldn't care less about the World Cup. Wasn't the refs fault either, or the linesman. We just simply are not good enough and it is going to be the same every year, until we install a new set of coaching staff who care about England and who should share the pride of the players who have the HONOUR of representing us at world level.

i wouldnt get rid of them all, you want an experienced spine, but clearly theres a clique in the senior players that needs to be broken up. capello is only part of the problem, the players, the fa, the media, the fans must all share in some of the blame