TFF's Tactic Testing League

Kasiopiya said:
I've tested widetargetkillsit



http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/shar...widetargetkillsit-wide-target-man-tactic.html


WideTargetManKillsIt12

DOWNLOAD GAME SAVE - https://ufile.io/5dzij

Underdog Test

Points = 276 ; G.D. = + 95


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WT_2.png
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Awesome, thanx ??????
 
Asrar Amin said:
Hey tff i need an answer to one of my questions plzz,so what u mean is u will struggle with underdogs next season ryt?So suppose i want to make a relegation contender into a regular champions league playing side how will i do it knowing that i will do good in first season and struggle afterwards???if u can answer i will be very happy thnx anyway
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Hey mate,

Let’s say you picked the weakest team in the league that had the lowest Reputation in the league and that was predicted to finish the last place but you greatly overachieved with that team and finished the 3rd place.

And now after your success your team’s Reputation has greatly increased which means that the next season more AI teams in the league will be using defensive/counter approaches against your and the test results clearly showed that when AI teams use defensive/counter against you then it harder to win than when AI teams use attacking approaches against you.

So it means that if you don’t improve your team for the next season then it’s very unlucky that you finish as high as 3rd place as you did in the previous season because as I said more AI teams will be using counter/defensive approaches against you the next season.

BUT after such great success as you finished the 3rd place with the weakest team in the league the board gives you a big transfer budget and it’s possible greatly improve your team for the next season so it means that the next season it’ll be harder to play due to your increased Reputation factor but the same time your team will be stronger so it might be that “improved team” factor is higher than “increased Reputation” factor and the next season you can do even better and finish the higher than the 3rd place or even you can win the league.

The logic is very simple, if you do good with your team every season then your team’s Reputation grows every season and more AI teams use counter/defensive approaches against your team and as test results showed it’s harder to play when AI teams use counter/defensive approaches against you then when AI teams use attacking approaches against you BUT the same time if you do good with your team every season then you get a big transfers budget every season and that allows you to improve your team every season so every season “Increased Reputation” factor drags from your results and “Improved Team” factor adds to your result and it’s always race between these 2 factors and the final result depends on which factor is bigger.
 
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kandersson said:
I think's it's incredibly stupid that this game and especially tactics are designed to favor underdog teams. That the very same tactic with very same players against very same (and very good) teams consistently gives worse results just because of higher reputation explains very well what's wrong with this game.
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I'd argue this isn't down to the game favoring underdog teams/tactics. It's the kind of dynamics that's to expected by tactics that aim to exploit whatever engine issue there is. You'll raise quickly with the most average/poorest of players never really managing nor understanding why, which if anything is what shouldn't happen. It causes so much frustration evidently. You can almost guarantee that most of the stuff getting shared this year won't work in the next coming iterations, as in the official forums there is already loads of players getting annoyed by central positioning that allows such to happen in FM 2017 (same as the wide "crossing issue" was criticized on 2016). You haven't gone through a natural rise then. As more teams keep it tighter, you are trying to unlock packed defenses with defenders that are better than your attacking players man by man. That's all a huge problem in so many ways, and sadly nothing a one size fits all tactic testing will ever solve.

You're then handicapped in two ways. Firstly, by your worse players. And then the virtue of that one-size-fits-all approach, just hitting continue, never applying simple logics that can help to stretch defenses by for instance stretching the pitch going wider. Quite the contrary, the engine holes targeted oft tend to be plugged a bit with defensive AI approaches. Additionally, if you go through the tactics, most of them have minimal to zero defensive cover, which influences further as the more defensive sides get, the more they lure that out. It's not going to happen as much as long as an opponent pushes aggressively up. That's then worse defenders being exposed for position against better attackers. Leicester couldn't rely on opposition to collapse when flooding the middle nor did they ever play with so little caution. Given up on exploits as that would need a perfect engine. I just hope that one day the game will include better feedback and assistants!
 
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vanTiggelen said:
I'd argue this isn't down to the game favoring underdog teams/tactics. It's the kind of dynamics that's to expected by tactics that aim to exploit whatever engine issue there is. You'll raise quickly with the most average/poorest of players never really managing nor understanding why, which if anything is what shouldn't happen. It causes so much frustration evidently. You can almost guarantee that most of the stuff getting shared this year won't work in the next coming iterations, as in the official forums there is already loads of players getting annoyed by central positioning that allows such to happen in FM 2017 (same as the wide "crossing issue" was criticized on 2016). You haven't gone through a natural rise then. As more teams keep it tighter, you are trying to unlock packed defenses with defenders that are better than your attacking players man by man. That's all a huge problem in so many ways, and sadly nothing a one size fits all tactic testing will ever solve.

You're then handicapped in two ways. Firstly, by your worse players. And then the virtue of that one-size-fits-all approach, just hitting continue, never applying simple logics that can help to stretch defenses by for instance stretching the pitch going wider. Quite the contrary, the engine holes targeted oft tend to be plugged a bit with defensive AI approaches. Additionally, if you go through the tactics, most of them have minimal to zero defensive cover, which influences further as the more defensive sides get, the more they lure that out. It's not going to happen as much as long as an opponent pushes aggressively up. That's then worse defenders being exposed for position against better attackers. Leicester couldn't rely on opposition to collapse when flooding the middle nor did they ever play with so little caution. Given up on exploits as that would need a perfect engine. I just hope that one day the game will include better feedback and assistants!
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the problem I have with current interpretation of AI tactical behavior is that every team, regardless of quality of their players or managers' tendencies/abilities is MUCH better when they play defensive rather than attacking. I've just won club world cup with Toronto FC beating Real Madrid and Boca Jrs, absolutely dominated them as I played counter and they were attacking. I'm not even sure my team would be very good for english Championship level, Real Madrid should destroy my team playing their trademark attacking football, yet they just kept conceding one CCC after another (of course my strikers would waste most of them but that's another story). If they played defensively they'd probably beat me easily. I had a much harder time against Etoile du sahel in first round (won at extra time after a 120 minutes siege). Makes no sense.

When a team plays defensive they instantly become extremely good at it. In fact the best thing that can happen in those cases is a red card for my team. This will trigger the 'attacking' mentality for my opponents and I'd usually score a couple of goals. Makes no sense.

As TFF already described perfectly, success in this game is made by a balance of reputation/quality of your team. I'd say that the game is actually quite entertaining and enjoyable (though a bit easy) as long as AI treats you like an underdog. This gives you the opportunity to explore some tactical variety and different styles of football. But as soon as AI identifies you as 'high reputation' the tactical side of the game is over. It's a groundhog day where you rely on growing quality of your players (and probably a cross orgy) to unlock unrealistically ultra-deep, ultra-defensive teams. Not realistic, not enjoyable.

Probably the premier league is a good league to play with this tactical premise, as several teams are very good (and most have the money to become very good) and tend to play quite attacking against anyone. I understand that most FM players have a preference to manage in PL, so maybe this doesn't feel like an urgent issue for most of them.
 
kandersson said:
the problem I have with current interpretation of AI tactical behavior is that every team, regardless of quality of their players or managers' tendencies/abilities is MUCH better when they play defensive rather than attacking. I've just won club world cup with Toronto FC beating Real Madrid and Boca Jrs, absolutely dominated them as I played counter and they were attacking. I'm not even sure my team would be very good for english Championship level, Real Madrid should destroy my team playing their trademark attacking football, yet they just kept conceding one CCC after another
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If you trash such sides with such players, you're using an exploit tactic. Go into the official forum and take a look into the wide midfielder position thread, where guys complain about yards of space opening up because of how SI have overhauled defending on 2017, and you will see why 3 AMC strikerless, going narrow and similar is popular. It is only when AI get more defensive that they may plug those gaps at least some, same as you are then lured out some with a threadbare midfield setup (also very popular). At the end it is a weird dynamic that has to do with an one-dimensional approach targeting whatever temporary defensive hole the engine has until patched, which typically is better plugged whenever an AI goes defensively. Depending on the formation it picks on top, drastically so. If it's on the attack, it doesn't have a chance. Totally agree it's all the problem of the game though. :(

You have two choices if that would annoy you: Don't use it, or do, but then you have to live with it. Defensive sides are part of the tactical side of the game, but none of the exploit tactics buy into that tactical side. They're circumventing it by a super tactic approach that would more or less drastically overperform no matter what, as it can't be defended much or not much at all. That is a deliberate and completely viable choice. It can be also a problem though. As that's where all this weird stuff is coming from, also the matches with loads of bad shots taken in the space of a closet 0 goals. Or you experiencing that it can be harder to score against weaker sides, as all they may need to draw it far less efficient is plugging that one hole targeted positionally. Imo they should invite great guys like TTF into testing. :)
 
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vanTiggelen said:
If that gap is as big as you describe, you're using an exploit tactic. Period. As said, I've given up on an engine without exploits, there is stuff in here that greatly annoys me too. However, I doubt that you would have this if you wouldn't. Pretty much all the tactics posted here are out to exploit. Go into the official forum and take a look into the wide midfielder position thread, and you will see why 3 AMC strikerless etc. is popular this version with reckless abundance. It is only when AI get more defensive that they may plug those gaps at least some, same as you aren't lured out by tactics that don't even have a holding player in midfield (also 9/10 in here).

You have two choices if that annoys you: Don't use it. Or do, but then you have to live with it. There is no way you're absolutely destroying such strong sides with poor teams without exploiting, which will always make for such weird dynamics.
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I like to think that I have a lot of choices... You don't know anything about how I play the game or what tactics I use. Zero. Period. I also have zero interest in explaining to you, because probably you'd try to teach me about real life football tactics or football philosophies etc which is really something I'd gladly avoid.

The problem is this is not football, this is a videogame about football. I don't exploit, I play a videogame. I already have experience with this series, at each edition I tend to see some new or old patterns and yes try to adapt to what I see in order to have success. So if a three man defence is ridiculously more effective against the immortal crosses, yep I tend to use it. If wingbacks are semi-gods with superhuman powers I tend to use them.

AI playing attacking is much easier to beat than AI playing defensive under any circumstance. This is not an exploit. It's how this game works atm. As seen from personal experience and confirmed by these testing leagues - and no, I don't like it. If I'm Toronto against Madrid I'm using counter because 1) I'm weaker 2) they'll attack 3) in this ME this is an advantage. I'll also use a 3 man defence because it's just the best way to defend in this game. It's not like I 'destroy' them a la diablo 2004, I just have more clean chances than them and often beat them. Which I think is very stupid btw, but I don't see how or why I should play different. I should go attacking? Why? I should use 4 man defence? Why? In MLS my team is always the favorite as I've won 4 championships in a row, so I use very attacking tactics and stomp opponents because my team is much stronger than others. What I can see is the second opponents go 'attacking' they start to concede CCC's every minute. Mexican teams in NACL, plus world giants in club world cup are regularly very easy to carve open because they 'attack', but they're not really effective at 'attacking'. This is not an exploit. It's something that makes no sense.

I try to play formations and tactics that make sense for me AND create those type of situations that ME favors. I do this because it's a videogame, and because I believe that current tactics cannot simulate real life tactics in first place, not even remotely e.g. the difference between attacking and defensive positioning of single players (I believe TFF himself wrote an excellent thread about this on SI forums). So I try (and usually manage) to find a balance between what 'works' in the game and what I like to see in real football. It's becoming much harder for me to find this balance - the game itself is very easy though, and I honestly can't remember the last time I played a league without winning the title in first season.

Didn't want to hijack this thread anyway, TFF always writes very interesting things and has a great understanding of FM and real football, unfortunately these two things work in very different ways.
 
kandersson said:
I try to play formations and tactics that make sense for me AND create those type of situations that ME favors. I do this because it's a videogame, and because I believe that current tactics cannot simulate real life tactics in first place, not even remotely e.g. the difference between attacking and defensive positioning of single players (I believe TFF himself wrote an excellent thread about this on SI forums). So I try (and usually manage) to find a balance between what 'works' in the game and what I like to see in real football. It's becoming much harder for me to find this balance - the game itself is very easy though, and I honestly can't remember the last time I played a league without winning the title in first season.

Didn't want to hijack this thread anyway, TFF always writes very interesting things and has a great understanding of FM and real football, unfortunately these two things work in very different ways.
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Kandersson, are you talking about this TFF's thread at the official SI forum? - https://community.sigames.com/topic/400942-defensive-shapeattacking-shape-or-wibblewobble/

I agree, it's brilliant stuff by TFF :)
 
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