My Huge Tactics Testing Project (FM 2012) !!!

[a_ilfandy]

Hi again,

with respect, i think you have missed the point. I think you are doing a great job and am not advocating anyone attempt to hijack or create a 'rival' to your entertaining thread. i was just trying to point out that there are several potential problems that could result in good tactics slipping through the net.

one easy solution would be having a knock-out in each of the 4 leagues, that way the complaints re relative league strength would be redundant as the tactics would go head-to-head with the other test tactic within their league.

re. injuries, i disagree. if team A loses 2 star players but Team B doesn't, over the short league season format adopted, then variations in performance could be attributed to the strength of Tactic B over A. this would of course not necessarily be the case.

As with any testing its all about controlling the controllables. you wouldn't test the effectiveness of anti-cancer drugs without controlling the test group, i.e. do they smoke, exercise, eat well etc etc, its exactly the same principle here.

as i previously said, GOOD JOB! and keep up the good work. No need to be bitter, i think this is the best thread on FMBASE by a long way so please keep going ... forget the job and social life, we need our fix of tactic testing !!

Thanks,
Adam

"I was just trying to point out that there are several potential problems that could result in good tactics slipping through the net."

yeah, I do know that.. but looking up on the 2011 project, this is an improvement.. still working on some more improvements.. keep the suggestions coming!

"one easy solution would be having a knock-out in each of the 4 leagues, that way the complaints re relative league strength would be redundant as the tactics would go head-to-head with the other test tactic within their league."

as I said, I dont mind in any changes in the league format.. as long as someone make it for me.. I'm done cracking my head creating an edited league that works..

"re. injuries, i disagree. if team A loses 2 star players but Team B doesn't, over the short league season format adopted, then variations in performance could be attributed to the strength of Tactic B over A. this would of course not necessarily be the case."

and I'm disagree with you. this is exactly why I built the squad with 25 good players.. so they can cover eachother.. its not that I'm putting Bambang Pamungkas (aging Indonesian striker) to replace Aguero when he's out injured.. thats I why put pato, rossi, hiaguin, falcao in the team.. are they equal? no! but good enough.. injury is something we cant control.. even if I want to, how am I gonna do that?

"As with any testing its all about controlling the controllables. you wouldn't test the effectiveness of anti-cancer drugs without controlling the test group, i.e. do they smoke, exercise, eat well etc etc, its exactly the same principle here."

I know what you are talking about.. but these variables are just part of the testing.. it will be impossible to control everything.. injuries, difficulties of the league, the formations they are using, fixtures, even the referees will influence the outcome.. wont it be interesting to see how these tactics cope with all this?? even IRL, every club does not get the same 'treatments'.. or in any experiment, the results can always be challenged..

lemme put it this way: this is only a 'just for fun' testing project I'm doing apart from my busy activities.. I never claim the tactics that succesful here is the best tactics out there.. because other tacticians already showing their annoyance on what I'm doing here..

come on, its just a game, and this is just a stupid project..
I dont want something I do for fun turn out to be something I'm stressed with.. and trying to make everybody happy will give me just that..

 

[a_ilfandy]

I believe he does give other tactics a go. Every round there's always new tactics coming.

The ones he kept are the ones that are 'qualified' from the last round.
Qualified as in winning the league or cup.

So yeah I think it's a fair testing in terms of the intakes.
The 'surviving' ones are kept tested until they fail and eliminated.
And the empty slots from those who got knocked out from the league and cup are replaced by new tactics - which are the majority.

Regading the 'fairer' league seeding.
As you've noticed the EPL ones are almost always eliminated. And the ones in La Liga are dependent to the performance of Barca and Madrid. Meanwhile teams in group C and D are having relatively easier rides.
With that, the only solution I can come up with is to select 8 top teams duplicate them. So each groups has the same opponent.
But you've done this before and people still complains. So yeah, you just can't please everybody.
But I do love the current format though. It's very entertaining.

One crazy idea I had is putting all the tactics up against eachother in a full 20-team league only consisting these custom teams.
That, or, doing it but in the current format but all custom tactic teams. Again, just a wild idea.
That, however, seems like would just be for pure entertainment purposes and not much of a testing.

But then again, it is his thread and we should play by his rule.
Good Guy Greg here has been nice enough to spend all this time and effort to help testing it for us, so we should not really ask for even more.

P.S. If I'm not mistaken, I read you wanted some help in case you need to edit database and such; I can help you with that.
Been doing a lot of database for kaskus and need something to kill this free time over the summer.

EDIT: This is not a rant. I enjoy your work and I think as it is, is already great.
I'm just dying to reply seeing some of the comments here

"the only solution I can come up with is to select 8 top teams duplicate them. So each groups has the same opponent."

ok, thats it! I'm taking back the new year gifts I sent you.. lol XD
seriously man? I still got some cracks on my head after banging it on the wall due to the crashes.
now you want me to do that again?? lol..
anyway, I like your idea, but it will leave us with teams like barca, man u..
we cant really see if the tactics can destroy teams like everton, malage, etc..
in my experience, tactics that do well againts the giants, not always be succesful againts middle and small teams.. as I mentioned, I want a tactic that can dominate the league, do well againts the big and destroy the small fries..
but it seems people like your idea, if you really can make this for me, then I'll use it..

"One crazy idea I had is putting all the tactics up against eachother in a full 20-team league only consisting these custom teams. That, or, doing it but in the current format but all custom tactic teams."

again, seriously? that's it man, I'm not giving my sis phone no. to you.. heh3
kof, do you have any idea how long it takes for me to finish ONE season in this format?
the whole project will not be done when FM 13 is out.. I got a degree to go for, maaan..

oh btw, in my 2011 project, a test tactic that do well against another test tactic not necessarily succesful againts AI teams.. remember el magico/uygar tactic in FM 11? that tactic is the best when I do this kind of testing.. 1 league, 10 teams, all test tactics.. he won the league by 8 points, lost 1 game only.. but againts AI teams, mr hough and sahar showing better result..
this year, if you notice, the score when test tactics meet each other almost always out of ordinary, 3-3, 4-3, 6-5, 6-0 etc.. entertaining? yes! but I want a tactic that works on AI teams, especially..

anyway: thanks for the nice gesture.. I'm going to re-form the format of this testing sooner or later.. I just need help on the editing department.. I'll open a discussion for everybody on how the league should look like.. once everybody agree and the database is created, then I'll roll with it.. thanks!

 

[a_ilfandy]

anyway,

ROUND 3 IS COMPLETED!

THE CUP:

THE CUP FINAL:

THE LEAGUE:

THE PLAY OFF:

THE PLAY OFF FINAL:

MATCHES:

 

[koflok]

"the only solution I can come up with is to select 8 top teams duplicate them. So each groups has the same opponent."

ok, thats it! I'm taking back the new year gifts I sent you.. lol XD
seriously man? I still got some cracks on my head after banging it on the wall due to the crashes.
now you want me to do that again?? lol..

Dang! I was really looking forward for those gifts. lol

Oh no man, I was merely suggesting a format for future references.
In fact, if I were you I would just continue the format as it is.
It's your project, so if anyone got any complains, well it

anyway, I like your idea, but it will leave us with teams like barca, man u..
we cant really see if the tactics can destroy teams like everton, malage, etc..
in my experience, tactics that do well againts the giants, not always be succesful againts middle and small teams.. as I mentioned, I want a tactic that can dominate the league, do well againts the big and destroy the small fries..
but it seems people like your idea, if you really can make this for me, then I'll use it..

Ah true! Didn't thought of that. Up against the big guys all the time might not be such as good idea.
What you said in bold is true. My bad about that.

Well in that case, you can pick, like 2 big, 3 mid, and 1 small team (or whatever combination you want). Seems more 'all rounded'
The point I was trying to deliver is so that each group has the same opponent.

I can probably help you with that, but again as I said before, if I were you I will just stick with the current format if it seems to be the most comfortable as it is.

"One crazy idea I had is putting all the tactics up against eachother in a full 20-team league only consisting these custom teams. That, or, doing it but in the current format but all custom tactic teams."

again, seriously? that's it man, I'm not giving my sis phone no. to you.. heh3
kof, do you have any idea how long it takes for me to finish ONE season in this format?
the whole project will not be done when FM 13 is out.. I got a degree to go for, maaan..

oh btw, in my 2011 project, a test tactic that do well against another test tactic not necessarily succesful againts AI teams.. remember el magico/uygar tactic in FM 11? that tactic is the best when I do this kind of testing.. 1 league, 10 teams, all test tactics.. he won the league by 8 points, lost 1 game only.. but againts AI teams, mr hough and sahar showing better result..
this year, if you notice, the score when test tactics meet each other almost always out of ordinary, 3-3, 4-3, 6-5, 6-0 etc.. entertaining? yes! but I want a tactic that works on AI teams, especially..

Oh okay didn't know about that before so just scratch that idea
And yeah true, if people want to test their tactic they can always do an online league against their mate (something I did earlier this year with kaskus, if you're interested to have an online friendly just let me know)

Ah dude, I already got your sis bbm pin, so yeah.. 8)

anyway: thanks for the nice gesture.. I'm going to re-form the format of this testing sooner or later.. I just need help on the editing department.. I'll open a discussion for everybody on how the league should look like.. once everybody agree and the database is created, then I'll roll with it.. thanks!

Whatever choice you'll make I'm sure the people here will respect it.
I will definitely help with the database and usually I'll run it for a season a couple of times to make sure it doesn't crash halfway through.

___

For us who's keep suggesting this and that, keep in mind that he's doing all the work here. and it's not go on holiday, it's actually running 8 teams altogether. So it's not certainly a walk in the park.

 

[casperpld]

Xenon have finally won the play-offs. Nice performance for both Xenon and Vodu. Looking forward to see Xenon in england

 

[a_ilfandy]

Dang! I was really looking forward for those gifts. lol

Oh no man, I was merely suggesting a format for future references.
In fact, if I were you I would just continue the format as it is.
It's your project, so if anyone got any complains, well it



Ah true! Didn't thought of that. Up against the big guys all the time might not be such as good idea.
What you said in bold is true. My bad about that.

Well in that case, you can pick, like 2 big, 3 mid, and 1 small team (or whatever combination you want). Seems more 'all rounded'
The point I was trying to deliver is so that each group has the same opponent.

I can probably help you with that, but again as I said before, if I were you I will just stick with the current format if it seems to be the most comfortable as it is.



Oh okay didn't know about that before so just scratch that idea
And yeah true, if people want to test their tactic they can always do an online league against their mate (something I did earlier this year with kaskus, if you're interested to have an online friendly just let me know)

Ah dude, I already got your sis bbm pin, so yeah.. 8)



Whatever choice you'll make I'm sure the people here will respect it.
I will definitely help with the database and usually I'll run it for a season a couple of times to make sure it doesn't crash halfway through.

___

For us who's keep suggesting this and that, keep in mind that he's doing all the work here. and it's not go on holiday, it's actually running 8 teams altogether. So it's not certainly a walk in the park.

well, they do have some good points to think of..
btw, are we going to have patch 1, 2, 3 in like in fm 11?
if we do, normally how long does it take for the 12.1 to be released?
maybe I'll just wait until then before I do significant changes on this project..

 

[a_ilfandy]

Xenon have finally won the play-offs. Nice performance for both Xenon and Vodu. Looking forward to see Xenon in england

exactly the moment I'm waiting for..
if xenon struggle badly in england and out, then I'm going to make some radical changes..
by then, I think its save to say that the england league is unplayable..
the only reason I'm sticking with this, is because koflok's somehow managed to escape in round 1..
maybe re-shuffling is a good idea..

 

[kaanoo29]

exactly the moment I'm waiting for..
if xenon struggle badly in england and out, then I'm going to make some radical changes..
by then, I think its save to say that the england league is unplayable..
the only reason I'm sticking with this, is because koflok's somehow managed to escape in round 1..
maybe re-shuffling is a good idea..

PRM league was hard only because man u team was too strong, this team beated all other tactics
my tactic still score most in PRM league, but worst defend ^^)

 

[kaanoo29]

Sorry to interrupt your personal love in but didn't JP Woody's tactic beat you in both head to head matches 3-2 and 4-0? I think that settles the argument really bud.

yes, so? he beat me 2 times, very good tactic Woody i didn't said my tactic is best, just happy with my scoring

 

[kaanoo29]

You said apart from Man Utd you "beated" all other tactics. If ive read that wrong i apologise.

no, i said " man utd beat all other's tactics" ( look at page 19)

 

[titchychelsea]

What is the most popular tactic to use pal need a beast of a tactic,either a 4231 or 424?

 

[XeNoNF50]

English league next for mine. Interesting

 

[Tk1129]

Keep up the good work. Awesome thread.

 

[a_ilfandy]

What is the most popular tactic to use pal need a beast of a tactic,either a 4231 or 424?

well, based on the results, you should check on Xenon's, Vodu's and JP woody's..
but Xenon's tactic tested here is his 4-1-2-2-1.. if you are looking for 4231 or 424.. then go for his version of these formations.. he got one for each.. but I havnt test any of them.

note: he says that his 4-2-4 is even better than his 41221.. so just imagine.. and lemme know how it goes..

 

[a_ilfandy]

ROUND 4 IS ON THE ROLL..

THE LEAGUE:

THE CUP:

HEAD TO HEAD:

WHAT'S THE DEAL WITH THE ENGLISH LEAGUE?? EVEN XENON STRUGGLES ON IT..

 

[kaanoo29]

ROUND 4 IS ON THE ROLL..


WHAT'S THE DEAL WITH THE ENGLISH LEAGUE?? EVEN XENON STRUGGLES ON IT..

now i'm just waiting vodu in english league ^^

 

[a_ilfandy]

GUYS, I'VE MADE A DECISION..
IF NONE OF THE TESTED TACTICS FINISH ON TOP TWO OF THE ENGLISH LEAGUE IN THIS ROUND, THEN I'M GOING TO RE-SHUFFLE THE TEAMS OF EACH LEAGUE.. SO NEXT ROUND, EACH LEAGUE WILL CONSIST OF TEAMS FROM ENG, SPA, ITA, AND REST OF EURO..

THE PROBLEM IS, ITS REALLY HARD TO MAKE THE COMPOSITION THAT WILL MAKE EVERYBODY HAPPY, SO I'M GOING TO POST THE PRE-ELIMINARY GROUPING OF ALL LEAGUES.. YOU ALL ARE FREE TO SUGGEST BETTER COMPOSITION OR EVEN TOTALLY REGROUP THEM.. THE DISCUSSION WILL OPEN UNTIL I FINISH THE ROUND 4.. BY THEN, THE COLLECTIVELY AGREED COMPOSITION WILL BE USED FROM ROUND 5 ONWARD.. THE PREVIOUSLY WELL PERFORMING (BUT ELIMINATED) TACTICS WILL BE RE-TESTED..

NOTE: PLEASE DONT ASK ME TO ADD THE NUMBER OF THE TEAMS.. I THINK 10 TEAMS ON EACH LEAGUE IS REASONABLE.. WE ALREADY HAVE 40 TEAMS IN TOTAL.. I DONT WANT TO SPEND TOO LONG ON ONE ROUND.. THERE ARE SO MANY TACTICS I WANT TO TRY..

ANOTHER THING: I'M NOT GOING TO CHANGE THE FORMAT OF THE LEAGUE , THE PLAY OFF AND THE CUP.. THAT WILL BE DONE ONCE WE HAVE NEW BIG PATCH RELEASED..

PROPOSED COMPOSITION:

MAKE SURE EACH LEAGUE HAS 2 TEAMS FROM ENG, 2 FROM SPA, 2 FROM ITA, ETC..

 

[kaanoo29]

GUYS, I'VE MADE A DECISION..
IF NONE OF THE TESTED TACTICS FINISH ON TOP TWO OF THE ENGLISH LEAGUE IN THIS ROUND, THEN I'M GOING TO RE-SHUFFLE THE TEAMS OF EACH LEAGUE.. SO NEXT ROUND, EACH LEAGUE WILL CONSIST OF TEAMS FROM ENG, SPA, ITA, AND REST OF EURO..

THE PROBLEM IS, ITS REALLY HARD TO MAKE THE COMPOSITION THAT WILL MAKE EVERYBODY HAPPY, SO I'M GOING TO POST THE PRE-ELIMINARY GROUPING OF ALL LEAGUES.. YOU ALL ARE FREE TO SUGGEST BETTER COMPOSITION OR EVEN TOTALLY REGROUP THEM.. THE DISCUSSION WILL OPEN UNTIL I FINISH THE ROUND 4.. BY THEN, THE COLLECTIVELY AGREED COMPOSITION WILL BE USED FROM ROUND 5 ONWARD.. THE PREVIOUSLY WELL PERFORMING (BUT ELIMINATED) TACTICS WILL BE RE-TESTED..

NOTE: PLEASE DONT ASK ME TO ADD THE NUMBER OF THE TEAMS.. I THINK 10 TEAMS ON EACH LEAGUE IS REASONABLE.. WE ALREADY HAVE 40 TEAMS IN TOTAL.. I DONT WANT TO SPEND TOO LONG ON ONE ROUND.. THERE ARE SO MANY TACTICS I WANT TO TRY..

I think the cup must be played only by human tactics
and the league ... uh ... how about 45 teams in 3 league, 3 human tactics in 1 league, so we'll have 12 AI-tactic in 1 league: 3 strong team, 3 midlle team, and 6 weak team, so we can see more goals ^^ ( oh, and mix all team together, so we can see many style in 1 league)
league 1: man u , AC, OM ...liver,villareal, FCP...
league 2: barcelona, Man city, Juvetus ...chels, OL, Dortmund...
league 3: real, Inter, bayer, ...arsenal, at.madrid, Rome...

( i didn't say that juve or inter is better than chels or arsenal, but look at previous rounds, chels or arsenal team didn't play well, and ...a_ilfandy, why didn't you put dortmund in here, i think they're really strong)

 

[a_ilfandy]

I think the cup must be played only by human tactics
and the league ... uh ... how about 45 teams in 3 league, 3 human tactics in 1 league, so we'll have 12 AI-tactic in 1 league: 3 strong team, 9 other team, so we can see more goals ^^
league 1: man u , AC, OM ...
league 2: barcelona, Man city, Juvetus ...
league 3: real, Inter, bayer, ...

I edited my previous post, please check it..
about changing the format of the league, I dont think I'll do it in the near future..
I'm afraid of the crashes again, so its much saver if I just change the team composition..
about your three league format, how are gonna decide the teams for the play-off?
the reason I made it four league format because we can easily pick the top two so we can have quarterfinal in the play-off..

I personally like the play off format, I'm not satisfy if the title is just decided by the league finish..

oh, about dortmund, its because I picked the team by their reputation.. in germany, schalke (based on database) have better reputation than dortmund.. and I can only pick top two teams from germany to represent the rest of euro league.. 2 from FRA, 2 from HOL, and 2 from POR..

 

[mlssmith]

what is the vodu tactic?any links?