The Liverpool Thread

[zzeezzy]

But it's not the defeat that matters as much as how you react to it. And today we get to take our frustrations on a pitiful West Ham side who have an absolutely woeful record at Anfield .....

This West Ham are utter ***** and in complete disarray.

Think we absolutely wallop them 6/7/8 to start another long 15 game or so unbeaten run. Seriously.

Well... this... is... awkward.

 

[Theatre of dreams]

Coutinho is a big miss for me. Firmino at best when he's central, linking up with Coutinho.

One of those days Coutinho is a huge miss. Karius nervousness will spread like a disease through Pools backline!

 

[RhQQ]

This is the thing I would fear most as a Liverpool fan; let's face it, you're not going to score 3-4+ goals every game - it's not La Liga... so are Liverpool able to grind out a 1-0 like champions when the ball isn't going the rattle the net on average every 20 minutes? Scoring 2 goals at home against a bottom 4 side at home should guarantee 3 points. Should West Ham & Bournemouth be scoring 6 goals in 2 games against a team that fancy their shot at the title? Is your back 5 (including Karius) solid enough to keep clean sheets when they're being posed questions in games in which you're not going to steamroll? I've yet to see anything to be confident of that.

I know I've seen comments on this thread about clean sheets being overrated and what not, but I disagree. It's a massive factor as to why Chelsea are top of the table at the moment and now 6 clear of you lot.

Cech, Terry, Carvahlo & co were massive in Mourinho's dominant spell at the bridge... Van Der Sar, Vidic & Ferdinand & co were massive in United's dominant spell, I just don't see anything like that when I look at Liverpool's back 4, just a nervy keeper that saves very little and has 0% confidence (I actually feel for him, I think Klopp has to act in some way), a workhouse midfielder switched to left back because the other one is a car crash, a Croat centre half who almost has a bad piece of play to follow every good piece, I don't know too much about Matip but that was woeful defending by him for Antonio's goal, but I'll give Clyne credit, he's a decent full-back.... but that's really all I see.

Need a left back, a proven centre half, and this keeper issue SORTED BIG TIME. Whether it's having a word with Karius, getting him to do something extra at Melwood, or just take him out of the firing line for a bit, either way something needs to be done. I know I've used De Gea as an example of defence with the German, but Carragher made a good point; With De Gea it was just problems with his physicality and reacting to crosses, adapting to the physical bearings of the Premier League, but with this kid he's actually having trouble catching the ball and stopping shots, which is the same as he'd have to be dealing with in Germany or Italy or Spain, etc.

Very interested to see what happens midweek, I doubt he'll drop him, but interesting to see if he will weigh in with a performance, as no doubt 'Boro will have their moments against that back 4.

 

[Scouseinthehouse]

As you don't naturally watch L'pool, you wouldn't doubtless realise a lot of the context and actual good facts regarding our defence this year the TV companies/ pundits neglect to mention as that wouldn't make good TV debate/ controversy. So let's address them to give some balance to L'pool's apparent Achilles heel .....

This is the thing I would fear most as a Liverpool fan; let's face it, you're not going to score 3-4+ goals every game - it's not La Liga... so are Liverpool able to grind out a 1-0 like champions when the ball isn't going the rattle the net on average every 20 minutes? Scoring 2 goals at home against a bottom 4 side at home should guarantee 3 points. Should West Ham & Bournemouth be scoring 6 goals in 2 games against a team that fancy their shot at the title? Is your back 5 (including Karius) solid enough to keep clean sheets when they're being posed questions in games in which you're not going to steamroll? I've yet to see anything to be confident of that.

We've actually ground out, or closed out, 4 or 5 wins this year.

Opening day at Arsenal, we had a mad 10 minute or so spell from 4-1 when they got back to 4-3 on 75, then we comfortably shut the game down and they never had a sniff of an equaliser. Same at Chelsea when Costa pulled it back to 2-1 with half an hour to play, the game was closed out with barley a scare to our goal. West Brom got back to 2-1 with 8 to go but didn't have a sniff after that as we comfortably closed out the win. Palace we relinquished the lead twice at a very difficult place to go (enjoy that Wednesday. Palace are a wholly different prospect down there), but battled back for a 4-2 victory. 'Spurs the League Cup got back to 2-1 with 15 to play, with little else to follow. I'd even throw in going one down at Swansea after 8 minutes, riding out the pressure until 10/15 before half time, then flipping it around to a 2-1 win in complete control bar one mighty scare injury time they never capitalised on.

Closing out/ winning tight games/ battling and grinding out the win hasn't been an issue for this side this season outside of the last 2 games.

The first choice back four and Karius have played a grand total of four and a half games together. Through which they've kept 3 clean sheets and conceded 3 goals. Make of that what you will but it's WAY too early to make a judgement on such an embryonic unit that Karius couldn't even train with for the first 2 months of the year down to a broken hand.


I know I've seen comments on this thread about clean sheets being overrated and what not, but I disagree. It's a massive factor as to why Chelsea are top of the table at the moment and now 6 clear of you lot.

We have actually had 6 clean sheets this year, with 3 on the bounce a mere two games back. Today was only the fifth time in 19 games this year we've conceded more than 1 goal in a game. (1x 4/ 1x 3/ 3x 2.).

Prior to today (which may or may not still be the case) we had the best record in all the top 5 leagues in Europe for the fewest number of shots from open play on our goal this season.

The defence isn't half as big a problem as people lazily try infer.

Cech, Terry, Carvahlo & co were massive in Mourinho's dominant spell at the bridge... Van Der Sar, Vidic & Ferdinand & co were massive in United's dominant spell, I just don't see anything like that when I look at Liverpool's back 4, just a nervy keeper that saves very little and has 0% confidence (I actually feel for him, I think Klopp has to act in some way), a workhouse midfielder switched to left back because the other one is a car crash, a Croat centre half who almost has a bad piece of play to follow every good piece, I don't know too much about Matip but that was woeful defending by him for Antonio's goal, but I'll give Clyne credit, he's a decent full-back.... but that's really all I see.

Not going to debate individual players as it's all subjective. All different opinions are welcome and interesting. Even if I wouldn't agree.

Need a left back, a proven centre half, and this keeper issue SORTED BIG TIME. Whether it's having a word with Karius, getting him to do something extra at Melwood, or just take him out of the firing line for a bit, either way something needs to be done. I know I've used De Gea as an example of defence with the German, but Carragher made a good point; With De Gea it was just problems with his physicality and reacting to crosses, adapting to the physical bearings of the Premier League, but with this kid he's actually having trouble catching the ball and stopping shots, which is the same as he'd have to be dealing with in Germany or Italy or Spain, etc.

I do completely disagree here on a few things however. Milner has been great at LB this year and was arguably the best player in red out there again today. Solid defensively. Fantastic going forward. He's been our main playmaker in a lot of games. Which given the quality of those further ahead of him speaks volumes on him. He's the very least of any L'pool worries. Karius I won't even attempt to defend today. But again, as last week, I wouldn't put much stock at all in anything Carragher says directly after a L'pool game or even the day after. He's still too invested and too emotional as a fan to give a rational judgement on most anything. Being back in the pub and hearing him say Randolph's howler was just the life of a 'keeper, but he made up for it with the Worldie save whilst continuing to lambast Karius (how does this help the lad again Jamie? It's going above and beyond punditry now) is a prime example. He normally levels out later in the week.

Could we upgrade on Lovren a a starter alongside Matip? Definitely. But unfortunately Joe Gomez is just recently back from 14 months out so it's a mix and match right now. Klavan was one of the few notable ones today second half and Lucas has been very impressive stepping in. Last week's horror game aside from him.

It is what it is but the middle of our defence isn't nearly as big an issue as it's perceived to be. The way we play, the chances we take, they're always going to be exposed. You could hand pick your ideal goalkeeper and back 4 from around the World and you'd doubtless still concede goals the way we play. But then when today was the 49th goal we've scored this year, and we're running at at 2.6- 1.1 goals per game average scored/ conceded, we're going to win/ come out on top FAR more times than we aren't.

Very interested to see what happens midweek, I doubt he'll drop him, but interesting to see if he will weigh in with a performance, as no doubt 'Boro will have their moments against that back 4.

There's no way Karius gets dropped. He was bought for both the here and now and to develop for the long haul. Just because he's struggling now isn't going to change that.

He's not gone from the second best goalkeeper in the Bundesliga last year as voted by his fellow professionals, a man watched countless times by our scouts and not least Klopp, at his team Mainz; to utter ***** as the common narrative all over the place is based on 11 games and so called experts views on the TV/ in the press.

It's a complete non-debate as the manger has full faith in him.

He's struggling but it's something that he and we will just have to ride out.

 

[zzeezzy]

You're having a bit of a dip, it's really how quickly that you get out of it during this busy christmas period that will define your season here on out as to whether true title challengers or top 4 contenders.

 

[Scouseinthehouse]

Well that didn't go as expected.

5 points lost from winning positions 3 times the last 2 games. Not too clever to say the least. If last week was just a frustrating 'one of them', with L'pool losing the game rather than Bournemouth going out and winning it with a mad, nightmare last 20 after the preceding 70 was almost the picture perfect away display; today, against a real poor West Ham side, was the complete opposite and the first time this year you've been left real mad at these Reds.

I didn't actually think we were that bad collectively. (Individually is another matter.). Controlled the first half without being great (the tempo of our play was WAY too slow), conceded two bad goals to flip it and go in one down; then come out a whole bunch better and dominate the second half without ever really feeling like we'd comfortably win. A real strange day. Flip a Randolph Worldie save from Henderson, a Clyne howler blammend over, and two penalty's that on another day would of been given, and we're talking about a different game and result. Funny old game footie. But we aren't. And the reality is L'pool dropped two bad points we never should of so let's get the bad out of the way firs:

Loris Karius. Oh yay!. Another few days/ week of the new National rhetoric to bash L'pool's 'keeper. This WILL be fun! (Rolls eyes.). Not that he helped himself at all. I don't understand his thinking the Payet free kick at all. That was central. So why stand to a side regardless? Let alone SO far over one side? After he'd positioned his wall badly to begin with. That is completely on him. But then you have to question the boneheadedness of Lallana for giving away a cheap free kick to begin with when Payet is in the opposition XI. Base stupidity all round and a horrible goal to concede. The second I don't blame him for as the deflection off Henderson threw everyone, Matip included. Then he comes and cleans Carroll out second half who very few goalkeepers ever even dare face upto. He's struggling right now, no question. But it's support he needs not the constant narking from our own fans.

Talking of ..... If ALL you want to do is cryarse and sit there with yer arms folded, narking and loudly groaning when every attack doesn't result in a goal, or the players go backwards to go forwards, please, feel free to **** right off and do one back to whatever ***** town you've travelled from and follow you're pissant local club there and be a ******** on there time! The knee jerk, cryarseing from absolute bellends, mainly wools, is getting behind tiresome. If you aren't invested in believing in what these lads are doing in this title charge, and aren't prepared to fully get behind them, ******* do one! The ******* Southern knobs in front who booed half time (they soon shut up and totally **** it when they got told in NO uncertain words about that inbred, Sunday league behaviour) had to be seen to be believed. 6 points off the top the league, semi final of one cup with another about to start, not even out of December, and they get that **** for their seasons efforts. No wonder Klopp is getting exasperated at some of our so called 'support' at times.

Have a ******* HARD word yer selves before you return Stoke and ******* support your team! Or just don't ******* bother! *Calms.

Talking of Klopp, the one constant gripe with him was again frustrating the living **** out of me. You have subs for a reason mate. USE them to change things will yer! Bring Alby on wide. Give Woodburn a shot the last 15. Anything. But do SOMETHING when it's patently not going to happen with what's out there. Southampton springs instantly to mind when Coutinho was totally goosed half time but he left him all game and brought Daniel on WAY too late. One thing Jürgen needs to change about himself. Loyalty's great to the XI mate but you selected the subs for a reason.

Thought all the midfielders were shockingly off today too. And Bobby had his worst game of the year. Woodburn should of been well on for him late.

A bad, maddeningly frustrating day overall.

But then there's the perspective of L'pool being 6 points off the top the league. In December. Two games clear in the top 4. Amidst a SERIOUS title challenge. Whilst also going all out for both domestic cups with yet another League Cup semi to look forward to in January. How bad are we?

A few positives of note:

Big Div Origi. 4 goals in 4 games. 9 goals from his last 10 starts. 16 from his first 49 games in red. 1 in 3. And still only 21 and nowhere near the developed end product. Yet he was overall ***** today. But he can't stop scoring so how do you leave him out? Quite the paradox for the manager.

Lallana equalled his league goal total from last year today. In 17 less games.

These Reds scored their 49th goal in only 19 games this year today Failing to score in only 4 games in only 4 games on the season. With a goals per game scored/ conceded ratio of 2.6- 1.1 they'll continue to win way more than they lose/ draw.

The unbeaten home run now stands at 15 games. and counting The best for 7 seasons.

Mané looked the best he has in over a month which is real heartening for the Chrimbo run.

Bad , maddening day at the office no doubt. But not half the disaster the cryarsing would have you believe. Have to win at Middlesbrough though now. Can't drop again. And that concerns me as I had it down as a draw given L'pool's woeful record at the Riverside.

Up the still on course to be 19 times Champions Reds!

 

[Scouseinthehouse]

You're having a bit of a dip, it's really how quickly that you get out of it during this busy christmas period that will define your season here on out as to whether true title challengers or top 4 contenders.

Wednesday at Middlesbrough is now a MUST win game.

Which for the first time this year really worries me. Not that the team can't go there and win. Just we rarely if ever have the Riverside. It's a bogey ground and then some. (Two wins. Maybe just the one? It's a **** poor record whatever it is.).

That WILL be a long night.

 

[iamauser]

Klopp on G Neville: ""He showed he struggled with the job to judge players so why do we let him talk about players on television?"

 

[Scouseinthehouse]

Klopp on G Neville: ""He showed he struggled with the job to judge players so why do we let him talk about players on television?"

He's told it EXACTLY like it is in defending his player from the ridiculous OTT criticism and shifting the focus away from Karius back onto himself. As much as I love him defending his lads and saying the truth, I'd rather he hadn't but this well needed saying. The hatchet job going on with Karius is scandalous. I didn't see MOTD last night but I've read about Shearer calling out Phil Neville on his bollocks. You think if you criticise a player he doesn't have the right to respond? Gobshite. Carragher needs to wind it back in too.

Hopefully that's the end of it and this doesn't escalate into a slanging match:

View attachment 115269

 

[Mike.]

For all the Karius flak, Liverpool are giving away more big chances on goal than anyone else in the league at the minute. Need to stop that, sharpish.

 

[Mike.]

Tbh the whole thing on all sides is rather embarrassing; Klopp, Karius, Nevilles, Carragher.

No comes out looking good

 

[zzeezzy]

I don't see the need for Klopp to have a go at Neville here, think he has made himself look a bit silly trying to defend Karious after that display. Anyway Neville is one of the best pundits and was not saying it in any biased way. He was only saying it how it is and he is paid to do that. Pretty sure many Liverpool fans blamed Karius for some part yesterday as well, so don't really see why Klopp needs to single out the Neville brothers and their alleigance towards United. Just seems unnecessary to me as Karius has been suspect of late and at fault for some aspects of the goals conceded.

 

[Mike.]

Things that are irrelevant on Karius' form
1) Who Neville supports
2) What he does
3) Who Carragher supports
4) What he does

 

[zzeezzy]

Interestingly in a similar situation I remember the stick De Gea got from Soueness, Redknapp and co. for his handling of corners in first season. Karius has had it relatively easy in comparison thus far.

 

[Scouseinthehouse]

For all the Karius flak, Liverpool are giving away more big chances on goal than anyone else in the league at the minute. Need to stop that, sharpish.

Yup, Lovren in particular has been all over the place the last two weeks. Even without the cramp (if that's not just a convenient excuse) he needed off half time yesterday. Klavan was much more solid second half.

But it's not just the defence. Henderson had his worst 20 minutes the year the end at Bournemouth, and followed it yesterday with another poor game. The midfield was non-existent.

Attack as a team and defend as a team. It starts from the front on back and the last two weeks have been very costly from them all switching off. 5 points dropped from winning positions , 3 times over, isn't too clever at all.

 

[Scouseinthehouse]

Tbh the whole thing on all sides is rather embarrassing; Klopp, Karius, Nevilles, Carragher.

No comes out looking good

I agree and hopefully that's the end of it but it got to the point here where something needed saying.

He had to go out and defend Karius. And if that meant going on the offensive and turning all the attention away from his player and back onto him so be it. Ferguson, Mourinho, Benitez all have done similar. Protect your own.

Phil Neville sticking his oar in last night was one too far.

 

[iamauser]

To be fair, Klopp has done his job. What are people talking about right now? (At least the more moronic fans out there)

Klopp vs Neville, not Karius ******* up. As far as Klopp is concerned, job done.

 

[Scouseinthehouse]

Probably just a precaution, but it was interesting to hear the interim joint U-23's manager Garrity say Joe Gomez was pulled at half time in a pre-planned move tonight after Lovren's injury yesterday. But what a fantastic boost for the young beast if he's just part of the squad at Middlesbrough Wednesday after so long out and the hard work to get back to this point.


Kudos to Peter Marshall and the Wrong Kennedy et all for tonights ITV doco on the worst day of many of our lives. Just when you think you've heard every abhorrent action SYP and their ilk took to besmirch our very being, the continued depths the bottomless pit of lies throws up, even altering the referee's statement ..... Words fail you.

 

[Scouseinthehouse]

Mike Dean has been appointed to ref. the Derby?

Mike Dean from the Wirral, who's rightly never had this game, and even more rightly hasn't refereed a game involving either club in over 10 years? THAT Mike Dean?!!!!!

After the recent Anthony Taylor disgraces, this just tops the clueless buffoonery of those that make such boneheaded appointments off!

I shudder to think what carnage will ensue next Monday night.

 

[Theatre of dreams]

See Zorc on Sky Germany today saying that Liverpool are wasting there time. And he is not for sale. Said the club are planning with him and will be key next season and the future of the club.