Valencia is really good 1v1 as well. Though he's a bit brainless. Fosu-Mensah looks decent. Looks like Valencia with a blame. It's hard to use these stats to compare defenders, especially full backs. You have to look at the systems first. Full backs are probably the easiest to compare at the back. Clyne intercepts a lot more and has more of a footballing brain most definitely.
The Manchester United Thread
- Thread starter MisterStubbs
- Start date
- Replies 106K
- Views 8M
Valencia intercepts almost twice as much per game as Clyne.
You talk about 1v1, then talk about systems. Your context is all over the palce.
Both are excellent full backs, Clyne shades it in attack, Valencia pulls away in defence.
You talk about 1v1, then talk about systems. Your context is all over the palce.
Both are excellent full backs, Clyne shades it in attack, Valencia pulls away in defence.
Herrera was good 2014-15 when he peaked and had a bit of an unsustainable scoring run but ultimately, he was a contributing factor to the failure of Van Gaal's system. Central midfielders in a 4-3-3 are among the most important position with full backs. United's biggest failure was in the first phase. The attackers were always going to fail with such a poor build-up. Paul Pogba and Michael Carrick help to address this. Credit to Mourinho. You're not going to win a Champions League starting Ander Herrera. This is Mourinho will likely get Saul as Mourinho knows the importance of the CMs in his system. Fair play to Herrera who's adapted to his limitations and performed well in the LVG system.
Joel Matip has had a far better than Smalling so far and he's far more experienced. His reading of the game is second to none. His ability on the ball easily takes him above Smalling. Matip would have helped LVG's system work.
Milner is technically on another level to Valencia. Attacking output has been better. The quality of his runs have been excellent. 2nd best left back in England 2016.
Valencia being one of the best full backs in the league is hardly an endorsement. Lots of substandard full backs. He has done well though.
Other way round if anything. Clyne is a defensive left back. Using tackles, interceptions etc per 90 for defenders is a terrible idea given the different systems. For example, Hector Bellerin averages a tackle every 8 games. 3 vastly different pressing schemes. A lot of quantitative analysis must go on. You can analyse the quantity of runs, movement etc. more easily. Defenders aren't forwards.
That's exactly the point. It isn't the best way to measure how well a player reads the game. E.g. Jonny Evans has far more interceptions than Azpilicueta.See if you clowns kept LVG, you wouldnt be having this 'interceptions' argument as United always had the ball..
Passing it sideways but never losing and needing to intercept. #Mad Genius!
I do think the Lallana/Herrera comparison is very off. Lallana has basically got Pogba's role in the Liverpool team, the freedom to go forward and create, whereas Herrera would be a fairer comparison with say Wijnaldum or Henderson.
To say United can't be an elite team with Ander Herrera in the side is very harsh, United were the best team in Europe under a decade ago with the likes of Anderson and Darren Fletcher being frequently used, and he's a "cut" above them. The team doesn't need to be filled with Hollywood players, having said that this is where I think Herrera gets underrated, he's much more than just a tireless workhorse, he has got quality too.
It wasn't his fault that Zlatan & co didn't have their shooting boots on against Burnley, Stoke & co. It wasn't his fault Rashford didn't track the Ox or our centre halves were outjumped by Giroud against Arsenal. It wasn't his fault that Fellaini had a braindead moment against Everton to concede that penalty. So if those very avoidable events didn't occur, and we were 6-8 points better off and in 2nd, as a team still gelling, wouldn't be hard to argue that we couldn't be an "elite" team with him? What Herrera can be accounted for, is bossing the midfield in practically every game, making up km after km for Pogba getting/being forward, and Carrick's lack of legs, and actually, his forward pass is really good; that assist for Mkhitaryan against Spurs, so instinctive, was a prime example of his vision and weight of pass.
If we have any problems with our team, which I can say we do not at the moment, it's definitely not coming from our central midfield. We've dominated every game with Carrick-Herrera-Pogba, with each and everyone of them doing their bit.
To say United can't be an elite team with Ander Herrera in the side is very harsh, United were the best team in Europe under a decade ago with the likes of Anderson and Darren Fletcher being frequently used, and he's a "cut" above them. The team doesn't need to be filled with Hollywood players, having said that this is where I think Herrera gets underrated, he's much more than just a tireless workhorse, he has got quality too.
It wasn't his fault that Zlatan & co didn't have their shooting boots on against Burnley, Stoke & co. It wasn't his fault Rashford didn't track the Ox or our centre halves were outjumped by Giroud against Arsenal. It wasn't his fault that Fellaini had a braindead moment against Everton to concede that penalty. So if those very avoidable events didn't occur, and we were 6-8 points better off and in 2nd, as a team still gelling, wouldn't be hard to argue that we couldn't be an "elite" team with him? What Herrera can be accounted for, is bossing the midfield in practically every game, making up km after km for Pogba getting/being forward, and Carrick's lack of legs, and actually, his forward pass is really good; that assist for Mkhitaryan against Spurs, so instinctive, was a prime example of his vision and weight of pass.
If we have any problems with our team, which I can say we do not at the moment, it's definitely not coming from our central midfield. We've dominated every game with Carrick-Herrera-Pogba, with each and everyone of them doing their bit.
Scouseinthehouse
Member
- Joined
- May 1, 2015
- Messages
- 21,864
- Reaction score
- 4,899
- Points
- 113
Alrhough he'd never talk about individuals over the team, I'd wager good money that if pressed Klopp would say the first two names on his team sheet are Firmino and Lallana. You're mistaken on Lallana robbo mate. He's absolutely integral. Nobody works harder the entire league. Most all our pressing triggers stem from him. And now he's been moved inside and deeper, where he can rely on his technical ability, and not the only thing missing from his game that just keeps him below the very top bracket, his lack of pace, he's flourished. What is it now, 8 goals, 7 assists ? (Something around that. Not home to check.).
For both club and Country there's not been a better Englishman this year to date.
Not getting involved with the other individual debates but you're mistaken if you truly think Adams a stop gap and not a key member of Klopps L'pool.
Off topic with all the Liverpool/United comparing, came across a name earlier in Rodrigo Possebon. FORGOT ALL ABOUT HIM. Supposedly had a pretty big future, but if Wikipedia is accurate, he's now 27 years old with under 50 senior appearances and 0 senior goals, playing for a lower division Brazilian side.
Hate when injuries screw with 'what could of been' careers.
Hate when injuries screw with 'what could of been' careers.
Last edited:
Sentimentality needs to be ditched. There are a lot of player on all teams including my own that are not good enough but sentiment keeps them there. Football has changed from a decade ago and what SAF was doing was incredible. In this country, football is seen to be positions and player roles. You can pull out an anecdote of Herrera who I think is 'tidy' but the reality is that his ability in the final third/first phase has never been good enough for United.
Herrera is nothing compared to Henderson role wise. Henderson plays in the same role as Carrick. He's more comparative to Wijnaldum whose limitations have been shown in Klopp's system. They aren't bad players but not good enough. The reason that he has such a basic role is that he's limited. Do you think Saul Neguez is going to be a workhorse? The 2 central midfielders in a 4-3-3 are v important.
Theatre of dreams
Member
- Joined
- Mar 4, 2016
- Messages
- 7,636
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 0
Been a few. Possebon, Gibson, Rossi, Petrucci, Fabio looks like Demi Mitchell could be another, Will Keane.
Rossi was the most talented of the lot.
Herrera has been one of our top 3-4 performers this season, and has had the upper hand with practically every opponent he has come up against, even at Anfield when Liverpool were the more positive team. Offer me insight into that?
Theatre of dreams
Member
- Joined
- Mar 4, 2016
- Messages
- 7,636
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 0
Yeah then Petrucci he was a fantastic talent. Will Keane was one of the most natural goal scorers I've seen at his age.
I'd say Ibra, Pogba, Carrick, Mkhi and Valencia. But yes, Herrera is up there. He played well in a low/mid block at Anfield but Mourinho was forced to play that way because of squad and tactical limitations. His main strength is the counterpress. He's great at reading play and intercepts high up the pitch as a result. Mourinho historically hasn't been great at coaching it. There are lots of players vital to systems that aren't necessarily the best.
Average Joe
Member
- Joined
- May 25, 2009
- Messages
- 7,420
- Reaction score
- 13
- Points
- 38
Scouseinthehouse
Member
- Joined
- May 1, 2015
- Messages
- 21,864
- Reaction score
- 4,899
- Points
- 113
He's probably a better player than Herrera, but if we were to base it on your logic in regards to where Herrera falls short; adding little to the attacking third, then statistically, he offers more than Saul....
Saul has created 0.7 chances per game this season, Herrera has created 1.3 chances per game.
Zielinski is in a team playing the most entertaining football in Europe within a system Herrera failed in. Answer the rhetorical question. Is Saul not a large upgrade?You also said Zielinski which voids any opinion on Herrera mate